Sally_Reis_Digests

Sally M. Reis PhD Conference April 20, 2004 - Dr. Reis' Bio

There are three Digests Digest 126, 127, 128 - Scroll Down to read the posts

Selected Works written by Dr. Reis accessible on her homepage at UCONN

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:01:08 CDT
OURGIFTED-L Digest 126

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Introduction
by Anja Jacobs <anjajacobs@macunlimited.net>
2) RE: ADMIN: Only reply if you are the guest expert, Sally Reis
by sally reis <sallyreisphd@hotmail.com>
3) Hello everyone.
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
4) Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
5) Re: Good afternoon
by AnnetteSheely@aol.com
6) ADMIN: Welcome and let the conference begin:)
by Sally_L@comcast.net
7) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
8) Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
9) Re: Good afternoon
by Regina Olshan <rolshan2000@yahoo.com>
10) Finding a balance
by Sally_L@comcast.net
11) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
12) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
13) Re: Finding a balance
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>

14) Re: Good afternoon
by Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
15) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
16) Re: Good afternoon
by MEC <mec@growminds.com>
17) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
18) Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by SWHPhD@aol.com
19) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
20) Testing...
by Cards2Sail@aol.com
21) Re: ADMIN: please remove
by Elevenplus@aol.com
22) Please unsubscribe from the list
by Venkatappa Jambulapati <venkatappa_jambulapati@tnb.com>
23) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by Sally_L@comcast.net
24) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
25) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
26) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>

27) Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
28) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
29) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
30) Re: Finding a balance
by Joni <lawver@direcway.com>
31) Re: Good afternoon
by Joni <lawver@direcway.com>
32) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by SWHPhD@aol.com
33) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by SWHPhD@aol.com
34) Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive development
for bright young girls?
by Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
35) Re: Good afternoon
by MEC <mec@growminds.com>
36) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
37) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
38) Re: Finding a balance
by Sally_L@comcast.net
39) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls

by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
40) Finding balance
by "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
41) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
42) Re: Finding a balance
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
43) Re: Finding balance
by Donna Langlois White <donna2143@cox.net>
44) Re: Good afternoon
by Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
45) Putting the needs of others first
by Susan <les@pandora.be>
46) Re: who goes for help
by RDlouruf@cs.com
47) Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive
development for bright young girls?
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
48) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
49) Re: Good afternoon
by Kate Little <ice_time@hotmail.com>
50) Re: Finding balance
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
51) Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive
development for bright young girls?
by Andrew_Carson@hmco.com

52) re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
53) Re: Putting the needs of others first
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
54) gifted preschooler with low self-esteem
by Anja Jacobs <anjajacobs@macunlimited.net>
55) Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
56) Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
by Shannon <shannon@childbrain.org>
57) Re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
58) Fw: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
59) Re: gifted preschooler with low self-esteem
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
60) Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
61) Re: Putting the needs of others first
by Susan <les@pandora.be>

62) Future action
by Sally_L@comcast.net
63) Re: Finding balance
by Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
64) Re: Finding a balance
by Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
65) Re: Finding a balance
by Sarah-jane Romano <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
66) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by Sarah-jane Romano <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
67) Re: Good afternoon
by Michelle Wilson <mlwilson@one.net>
68) Success
by Sally_L@comcast.net
69) Re: Finding balance
by Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
70) Re: Good afternoon - really is Balance
by Kate Little <ice_time@hotmail.com>
71) Empowering gifted girls and women
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
72) ADMIN: Technical Problems - Plan to follow
by Sally_L@comcast.net
73) Re: Future action
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
74) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Sarah-jane Romano <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
75) RE: Finding a balance

by Kate Little <ice_time@hotmail.com>
76) Re: Finding a balance
by Michelle Wilson <mlwilson@one.net>
77) Re: Putting the needs of others first
by Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
78) Re: Dr. Reis: Empowering gifted girls and women
by Sally_L@comcast.net
79) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Keri Guilbault <kguilbault@cfl.rr.com>
80) RE: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
by Keri Guilbault <kguilbault@cfl.rr.com>
81) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Kathryn M. Finn" <kitfinn@cox.net>
82) Re: Empowering gifted girls and women
by Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
83) Re: Empowering gifted girls and women
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
84) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Lindy McD. & Dick F." <rfritts@comcast.net>
85) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by JDCWilker@aol.com

86) Re: compare & contrast was Undiagnosed learning disabilities in
gifted girls
by Sally_L@comcast.net
87) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Kathryn M. Finn" <kitfinn@cox.net>
88) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by L Dunbar <ldunbar@umich.edu>
89) Re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
90) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
91) HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon
by Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
92) Re: Dr. Reis: Empowering gifted girls and women
by "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
93) Re: Finding a balance
by Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net>
94) Re: Finding a balance
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
95) Re: Finding a balance
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
96) Re: Finding balance
by "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
97) Re: Finding a balance
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>

98) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by joshshaine@comcast.net
99) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
100) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
101) Re: Dr. Reis: Empowering gifted girls and women
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
102) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Lindy McD. & Dick F." <rfritts@comcast.net>
103) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Misty Richmond <yahoo@mipper.com>
104) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Keri Guilbault <kguilbault@cfl.rr.com>
105) Re: Finding a balance
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
106) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "=?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel=20G.?=" <ratesjul@yahoo.co.nz>
107) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by joshshaine@comcast.net
108) Re: compare & contrast was Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted
girls
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>

109) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Sally_L@comcast.net
110) Re: Finding balance
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
111) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
112) Re: HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon
by Steve and Becca <rorlowski@cts.com>
113) ADMIN: List members - continue chatting among ourselves
by Sally_L@comcast.net
114) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
115) Re: Finding balance
by Sally_L@comcast.net

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:45:22 +0000
From: Anja Jacobs <anjajacobs@macunlimited.net>
Subject: Introduction
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <c639hi+3f8t@eGroups.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I have never participated in an on-line conference before, so I do
not really know how it works.

But I thought I'd start with a quick introduction:
I live in Belgium and I am the mother of 2 gifted children (aged 6,5
and 5). I am coparenting with my ex. I work full time.
My daughter, who will be become 5 years of age this week, is soon to
be tested for giftedness since we have strong indications for that.
She is still in preschool and has learned reading by self-
instruction. She strongly desires to skip the last year of preschool
and start elementary school next year. She is also beyond her age
and kindergarten level on calculus.

But apart from reading she shows very little interest in other

domains. The only topic she's been researching (since she was a
toddler even) was babycare, reproduction and fertility issues. She
has recently demonstrated a desire to learn play the violin and we'll
probably start with that soon. I am constantly keeping my eyes open
for other areas of interest she may hint at, but I cannot find
anything. She does participate in activities I undertake for her
brother but even at those she absorbs without further questions (in
general, recently we had one exeption). Yet she does remember what
she picks up this way, as she often demonstrates afterwards. She is
a strong perfectionist.

She has pretty low self esteem (had it even as a toddler) and has a
quite negative image of how she'll be when full grown. Lately she
said that she thinks she'll become a 'fat woman' as a grown-up. She
said it bothered her since she wanted to stay slim but she didn't
think it would be the case (yet most people in my family are slim to

skinny, including myself, without any pain).
She is very aware of how other people perceive her and does not feel
comfortable in social situations.

When I ask her about her outlook for the future ("what will you be
when you grow up?") she responses that it doesn't matter: she'll get
married, have children, and stay home to nurture them (as I should
do, in her opinion).

I do worry a lot about her because of this. It is also the reason
why I subscribed to the conference. Could it be she has already
developped internal barriers at this young age? Or doesn't she
simply care? May she be an overachiever (because of her older
brother who has turned out to be highly gifted) and in fact not be
gifted at all?

I'll be curious to read about experiences of other parents with their
young girls!

Best regards,
Anja

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:08:45 +0000
From: sally reis <sallyreisphd@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: ADMIN: Only reply if you are the guest expert, Sally Reis
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BAY1-F31jd4TvrrJFoi0002cd0f@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Sally_L@comcast.net
>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>Subject: ADMIN: Only reply if you are the guest expert, Sally Reis
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 03:39:09 +0000
>
>Only respond to this message if you are the guest expert, Sally Reis PhD
>
>Thanks,
>Sally_L
>List Manager
>Conference Coordinator
>www.neiu.edu/~ourgift
>
Hello, I am on now. Sally

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:13:39 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Hello everyone.
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAAEEA3.8680%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I am delighted to be joining you for this conference. This is a test to see
if this is working, Sally
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information about
our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three Summers
Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection, Parenting
Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research Center
on the Gifted and Talented.

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:17:03 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAAEF6F.8684%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Why do some gifted and talented women achieve and gain prominence or
eminence while others who had as much or more potential fail to achieve the
dreams they had as girls? Research with talented females has revealed a
number of personality factors, personal priorities, and social emotional
issues that have consistently emerged as contributing reasons that many
either cannot or do not realize their potential. Not all gifted females
experience the same issues, but trends have been found in research about
talented women that identify a combination of the following contributing
reasons: dilemmas about abilities and talents, personal decisions about

family, ambivalence of parents and teachers toward developing high levels of
potential, decisions about duty and caring (putting the needs of others
first) as opposed to pursuing one¹s own talents and a host of other
personal, religious, and social issues.

These personal and often emotional issues occur across women's lifespans.
Some affect girls at very young ages and some are only apparent to women who
have become involved in serious relationships in their college or graduate
school years or later in their lives when they have children. Research
indicates that many older gifted women resolve some of the personal issues
relating to ability and social issues experienced by younger gifted girls.
It is also important to understand that some of these dilemmas cannot be
resolved to the satisfaction of everyone. Rather, some dilemmas shift or are
resolved when changes in a woman's life occur, such as the maturation of her
children and, in some cases, the dissolution of a relationship, the

reemergence of other relationships, and a change in environments at work or
home. Therefore, it is difficult, if not impossible, when discussing social
and emotional issues, to discuss gifted girls without discussing gifted
women because many young gifted girls believe that they can "do it all" or
"have it all," while many older gifted females have learned that they
cannot. Many gifted girls were academically gifted in school, but as they
become older, ambivalence about their future caused their hopes and career
dreams to waver. Preventing this and learning more about why hopes fade is
the reason that much of the research about gifted girls and women continues.

What factors help some smart young girls become self-fulfilled,
talented adults who can achieve at high levels and enjoy personal happiness?
Some research has suggested that belief in ability and self-confidence of
talented females is undermined or diminished during childhood or

adolescence. It is imperative that research continues on this population as
studies of gifted women provide essential information about experiences of
smart girls during their childhood and adolescence, times at which both
parents and teachers can have the most impact in their lives.
Few questions can be raised about whether or not the underachievement of
gifted girls and women exists; the fact remains that in most all
professional fields and occupations, men continue to surpass women in both
the professional and creative accomplishments they achieve, at least when
traditional standards of accomplishment are considered. It may be argued
that these facts alone are not an adequate measurement of the
underachievement of talented girls and women; however, research indicates
that when many talented women reflect about their lives, they perceive many
lost opportunities (Reis, 1998). If female underachievement is best
measured by the many talented women in our society who look back at their

lives with feelings of regret, it then becomes our responsibility to help
future generations of gifted and talented females before they, too,
underachieve.

I have been studying these issues for over two decades and remain intrigued
by them. I look forward to hearing from you.
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:23:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: AnnetteSheely@aol.com
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <da.888881b.2db6d29c@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=-----------------------------1082488988

-------------------------------1082488988
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Thank you so much for the work you do. Your work has really informed my own.

I'm a school counselor at a school for the gifted and I have run "gifted
girls" groups for years. I really appreciate the lists you wrote in "Internal
Barriers..." about What Counselors Should Do, What Parents Should Do, etc. I
found those really useful.

Since the time that you wrote that article, I'm wondering if you have had any
new thoughts or observations about what teachers and counselors can do to
help gifted girls as they decide how to balance the priorities in their lives as

girls and eventually women?

Annette Sheely, Boulder, CO
(counselor of the gifted and fost-adopt mom of a gifted girl) : )

-------------------------------1082488988
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<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Thank you so much for the work you do.  Your work has really infor=
med my own.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm a school counselor at a school for the gifted and I have run "gifte=
d girls" groups for years.  I really appreciate the lists you wrote in=20=
"Internal Barriers..." about What Counselors Should Do, What Parents Should=20=
Do, etc.  I found those really useful.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Since the time that you wrote that article, I'm wondering if you have h=
ad any new thoughts or observations about what teachers and counselors can d=
o to help gifted girls as they decide how to balance the priorities in their=
lives as girls and eventually women?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Annette Sheely, Boulder, CO</DIV>
<DIV>(counselor of the gifted and fost-adopt mom of a gifted girl)  : )=
</DIV></BODY></HTML>

-------------------------------1082488988--

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:29:24 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: ADMIN: Welcome and let the conference begin:)
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042020041929.29825.40857A14000DB8C4000074812200761438FF91908693D18693939E@comca
st.net>

Hi Everybody,

Welcome to everybody, especially our guest expert Dr. Reis. Looking forward to
hearing from you all. Let the conference BEGIN!!!!

Sally_L
Conference Coordinator

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:38:42 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAAF482.8696%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

First, thank you for your kind words and second, that is an excellent
question. I have a few suggestions. First, let me digress. Studying gifted
females across the lifespan and over three decades is a complicated and
fuzzy problem. Carolyn Heilbrun (1988), in her beautiful book, Writing a
Woman¹s Life, explained:

Endings‹the kind that Austen tacked onto her novels‹are for romance or for
daydreams, but not for life. One hands in the long-worked-on manuscript
only to find that another struggle begins. One gets a job to find new
worries previously unimagined. One achieves fame only to discover its
profound price.

Endings, of course, are not endings at all, but rather new beginnings.

Many gifted women have given birth to and raised gifted girls, some of whom
identify with their mothers and/or fathers, and some of whom do not want to
become like their mothers and/or fathers because they do not like their
work, or perceive that one or both of their parents work too hard. As I was
writing this response, I asked my 15 year-old-daughter (who had been
identified and participated in a gifted program for many years) about her
perceptions of my work. Her response was reassuring, and her insight,
interesting. She responded that she hoped that she would be able to find
work that she enjoyed as much as I enjoyed my work so that she would
eventually want to work as hard as I did. Somehow, the wisdom of this
response struck a chord with me. Finding a balance seems to be a key.
Gifted girls should grow up to be surrounded by an ever-increasing number
of role models and they have. That has started, but still not as many as

they should have. We have yet to see talented women in top leadership roles
or in larger numbers in many areas in mathematics, sciences and the arts,
and some of this may be due to balance, chance and desire.

I think to have seminars with girls and older women of accomplishment will
enable them to meet and have frank discussions of some of the choices that
they face. They must also understand relationship issues. I also think that
the issues related to multipotentiality must be discussed. Girls have to
learn to make choices.

With that caveat in mind, educators and parents must help more
talented girls and women realize their abilities and potential. This goal
will only be accomplished by appropriate planning, careful selection of
choices, partners, and work environments, and by helping them to develop
personalities that take risks, question authority, and ask ³why² more often.
Virginia Woolf (1957) wrote that we must slay the angel in the house, the

censor within us. Speaking out, asking why, and developing the courage to
create are all essential to the emergence of female talents. But these
talents will not emerge in a singular voice or form, but rather in a
multitude of voices and forms‹ across many domains and in many areas. A
celebration of this diversity and a realization of the need for gifted and
talented women to find meaningful work that makes a difference will help
each talented woman create her own unique voice and form. As both gifted men
and women are able to grow individually, they will live more satisfying
lives that will ultimately enable them to develop their gifts, and make the
world a healthier, more beautiful and peaceful place in which we can all
live to celebrate the diverse expressions of art and humanity, and to enjoy
life.

Most of all, young girls have to learn to hold off on serious relationships
until they know who they are and what they want in life. That happens for
some young women, much later. Sally

--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

> From: AnnetteSheely@aol.com
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:23:08 -0400 (EDT)
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
> Thank you so much for the work you do. Your work has really informed my own.
>
> I'm a school counselor at a school for the gifted and I have run "gifted
> girls" groups for years. I really appreciate the lists you wrote in "Internal

> Barriers..." about What Counselors Should Do, What Parents Should Do, etc. I
> found those really useful.
>
> Since the time that you wrote that article, I'm wondering if you have had any
> new thoughts or observations about what teachers and counselors can do to
> help gifted girls as they decide how to balance the priorities in their lives
> as
> girls and eventually women?
>
> Annette Sheely, Boulder, CO
> (counselor of the gifted and fost-adopt mom of a gifted girl) : )
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:34 -0400
From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200404201948.i3KJlnXL002895@localhost.localdomain>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Thank you so much for doing this, Sally!

I work with gifted adolescents, and increasingly, I am being told by them of
their 'need' to self-injure. These are not suicidal ideations. In some
cases, they report a desire to punish, but for others, it seems to be for
stimulation or sensation - still others claim to use it to distract from
emotional pain.

How can a counselor, a teacher, or a parent respond? And why is it
principally the gifted girls doing this (though some gifted boys) and not
the general population?

Josh Shaine

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:53:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Regina Olshan <rolshan2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040420195335.96750.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

I enjoyed reading See Jane Win: The Rimm Report on How
1,000 Girls Became Successful Women by Sylvia Rimm.
Have you read it and do you have any thoughts about
it?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:53:44 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042020041953.14188.40857FC8000340CA0000376C2200735834FF91908693D18693939E@comca
st.net>

Dr. Reis,
Yes, finding a balance is so very important. By coincidence there is an article
in a Salt Lake newspaper which may be very interesting for list members to read
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595057355,00.html
Often women underachieve by accepting jobs which allows them to more time with
family rather than working 60 hours a week to stay competitive. Maybe this "new
concept" shift as mentioned in this article will really be a boon for those in
the legal profession, but what about those jobs in the math and sciences?

Sally_L

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:10:07 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@NEIU.EDU
Message-id: <BCAAFBDF.86AA%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Josh, what an interesting question and how sad and dangerous for these young
women. First of all, as you know, anyone who sees a girl (or boy) doing this
should definitely (and immediately) contact parents and seek help, as this
may be a precedent for later more serious injuries, even suicide. We have
been working with a very gifted girl here who has repeatedly cut and tried
to kill herself. There are degrees in all of this, and in some, I agree,
they are not suicide tendencies, but some are and we have to be mindful of
this. I agree with you that this happens for various reasons, including all
the ones that are mentioned below. I am not sure that it is any more

prevalent in gifted girls. Do you have any information on this, Josh?
Sally
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

> From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:34 -0400
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>
> Thank you so much for doing this, Sally!
>
> I work with gifted adolescents, and increasingly, I am being told by them of

> their 'need' to self-injure. These are not suicidal ideations. In some
> cases, they report a desire to punish, but for others, it seems to be for
> stimulation or sensation - still others claim to use it to distract from
> emotional pain.
>
> How can a counselor, a teacher, or a parent respond? And why is it
> principally the gifted girls doing this (though some gifted boys) and not
> the general population?
>
> Josh Shaine
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:11:31 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAAFC33.86AB%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Not only have I read it. I was one of the women in the study. What I like
most about it was that Sylvia tried very hard to include women who were
successful but also had enjoyable personal lives. There are so few people
doing research on talented women and I hope some of you will be inspired to
pursue some of your own. Sally
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information about
our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three Summers

Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection, Parenting
Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research Center
on the Gifted and Talented.

> From: Regina Olshan <rolshan2000@yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:53:35 -0700 (PDT)
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
> I enjoyed reading See Jane Win: The Rimm Report on How
> 1,000 Girls Became Successful Women by Sylvia Rimm.
> Have you read it and do you have any thoughts about
> it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25?
> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:25:22 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@NEIU.EDU
Message-id: <BCAAFF72.86B1%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

My recent research has led me to believe that some talented women¹s
creativity is diverted to multiple areas in their lives, including
relationships, work related to family and home, personal interests,
aesthetic sensitivities, and appearances (Reis, 2003). This diverse
creativity emerges in their work but also in other areas including their
relationships with family and friends, the ways these women decorate their
homes, prepare meals, plan complicated schedules for their families, balance
time between work and personal life, and stretch family budgets. This
diversification of creativity emerged across several studies and is
eloquently explained by one participant in my study of older creative women

(Reis, 1996; 1998). When asked about various periods of creative
productivity in her life, Mary Hunter Wolf, one of the first female
producers on Broadway discussed her beliefs about the ways in which women¹s
creativity evolves in a different pattern than men¹s:

Women spend their lives moving from one creative act to another and they
find satisfaction from their creative expression in many different outlets.
I have found that men, on the other hand, see an end goal and move directly
toward the pursuit of that creative goal. That is why men are able to
achieve goals and fame more quickly than women, but I think that women have
a richer creative journey, find joy in the diversity of their creative acts,
and in the end, enjoy the creative process so much more (Reis, 2003, p.
212X)

Women have different ways of demonstrating their creativity, and perhaps
because they are so frequently involved in multiple tasks, they are less

capable of focusing only on one aspect of creative work. My own research
suggests that some diversity in their creativity occurs because many
talented women enjoy and derive pleasure from diverse creative acts and the
diversification of their creative potential. Because women have had to
struggle to find a place for themselves in many work situations, they have
not yet had the time or experience to be able to engage in the single-minded
devotion to work that many of their male peers have had for decades.
Perhaps some of the barriers that talented women have experienced over time
have led to the need to diversify their creative talents, as several
external and internal barriers to creativity have been identified in recent
work conducted about creative women

Or it may be that they enjoy many diverse expressions of their creative
talents. Completing creative work requires long periods of concentrated
effort that are still not readily available to talented women in their peak

work and childbearing years, and perhaps not even in their older years. Many
women of all ages with families simply do not have that kind of time
available for their professional work. Those who want to pursue their work
with passion and single mindedness may have to make some difficult decisions
about their lives, and these decisions are still different from the
decisions that similarly talented men make. On the other hand, as men have
been able to emerge in different ways in our society, it has become
acceptable and expected for more of them to take a more active role in
family responsibilities and the day has come that gifted women may pursue
their passions while their partners assume home responsibilities and raise
children as the primary role in their lives.

Here is the issue with diversification and seeking balance: if gifted
females continue to try to do so much and diversify their talents in the way
described above...what does that mean? Does this mean that we will have

fewer (even than now) Nobel or Pulitzer Prize winners? Sally
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

> From: Sally_L@comcast.net
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:53:44 +0000
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Finding a balance
>
> Dr. Reis,
> Yes, finding a balance is so very important. By coincidence there is an
> article in a Salt Lake newspaper which may be very interesting for list

> members to read http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595057355,00.html
> Often women underachieve by accepting jobs which allows them to more time with
> family rather than working 60 hours a week to stay competitive. Maybe this
> "new concept" shift as mentioned in this article will really be a boon for
> those in the legal profession, but what about those jobs in the math and
> sciences?
>
> Sally_L
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:24:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040420202400.30382.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

--- "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu> wrote:
> Why do some gifted and talented women achieve and gain prominence or
> eminence while others who had as much or more potential fail to achieve the
> dreams they had as girls?

Hello Mrs. Reis,
Let me add my Thanks for your time and willingness to do this conference. I
was looking forward to your information because of our two wonderful daughters.

Our 11yr old is in a full time GT program and doing quite well at the moment,
it is the other daughter that our concern is about, currently. Our 14 year old
is extremely gifted with writing skills, but her lack of organization skills is

what conserns us at the moment. She will be awarded first place for our state
in a national writting contest she entered this saturday, but we fear she will
have a hard time getting into anything but a community college because of her
grades if her trend toward underachievement continues. She wants to be a
author of fantasy novels/childrens literature etc. Her poetry is so deep and
thought provoking, she is really amazing. She attends a full time middle
school gifted and talented program, and Aces the tests, and core things that
make up the subject of the curriculum, but has a difficult time doing all of
the excuse me-busy work the teachers require of the kids. I understand and
agree the busy work is sometimes rediculas, but it is this 'busy work' that is
dragging her grades in the gutter. I wish that along with the transcripts we
could forward info on what the grades were generated from.

I guess my question is this, how do we support her thrilling ability to create

while still having to 'conform' to the schools grading system, so she will be
able to keep her dreams and ability alive and be able to achieve her goals?

Thank You,
Ranae

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:43:35 -0400
From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200404202043.i3KKh3XD012141@localhost.localdomain>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Sally asked:
I am not sure that it is any more prevalent in gifted girls. Do you have
any information on this, Josh?

I have a couple of different ways of getting there, Sally. From the
research I have read, "estimates are that 1000 per 100,000, or 1%, of
Americans self-injure," but from both direct observation and from discussion
with a few other folks in the field and with the girls themselves, the
incidence at many of the programs and schools for the gifted (as well as in
the community with which I work) the incidence is higher than that - perhaps
as much as 10 times the rate. One high pressure school for academically

talented is running closer to 33%. The school's response to discovering
this problem has been to try to drop the students from the program.

This is from a 1986 survey on the subject: "She is female, in her mid-20s to
early 30s, and has been hurting herself since her teens. She tends to be
middle- or upper-middle-class, intelligent, well-educated, and from a
background of physical and/or sexual abuse or from a home with at least one
alcoholic parent. Eating disorders were often reported."

Of course, the irony of that is that if she "has been hurting herself since
her teens," then their profile is obviously skewed.

The amount of research on this in which the intelligence has been a factor
included is very limited - I am seeking more. It is not a topic I have seen
addressed much in the literature on girls, let alone gifted girls.

Josh Shaine
joshshaine@comcast.net
(permission is explicitly given to write to me off-list)

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:44:56 -0400
From: MEC <mec@growminds.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <40858BC8.D8C3527C@growminds.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

"Sally M. Reis" wrote:
>
> I also think that the issues related to multipotentiality
> must be discussed. Girls have to learn to make choices.

Regarding multi-potentiality and making choices; are you talking about
career choices? If so, when do girls need to start making these choices?

For instance, is it better to encourage a girl to focus on what she's
very good at and loves to do (music), or on something she's very good at
and finds interesting (medicine), but doesn't absolutely love? From a
practical viewpoint medicine is usually a more lucrative career and she
has the potential of saving lives or at least contributing to people's
well-being, which could be emotionally satisfying. But being a

professional musician may be more rewarding creatively and emotionally.

My instinct is to encourage both, but at some point it appears that
she'll need to decide which path to pursue wholeheartedly.

> With that caveat in mind, educators and parents must help more
> talented girls and women realize their abilities and potential.
> This goal will only be accomplished by appropriate planning,
> careful selection of choices, partners, and work environments,
> and by helping them to develop personalities that take risks,
> question authority, and ask ³why² more often.

Choosing a college must be crucial in this process. Of course, there are
excellent colleges that have strong music programs in addition to
premed. But if a musician wants a performance career, they often choose
a school specifically for musicians instead.

As you might suspect this issue is causing some angst in our household
right now. :)

Mary
--
mailto:mec@growminds.com

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:53:52 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB0620.86C4%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Thanks, Josh. I do think you have raised a point that I have seen more
often with this population in the last few years than previously. I
appreciate your information, Sally
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research Center
on the Gifted and Talented.

> From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:43:35 -0400
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>
> Sally asked:
> I am not sure that it is any more prevalent in gifted girls. Do you have
> any information on this, Josh?
>
> I have a couple of different ways of getting there, Sally. From the
> research I have read, "estimates are that 1000 per 100,000, or 1%, of
> Americans self-injure," but from both direct observation and from discussion
> with a few other folks in the field and with the girls themselves, the
> incidence at many of the programs and schools for the gifted (as well as in
> the community with which I work) the incidence is higher than that - perhaps
> as much as 10 times the rate. One high pressure school for academically

> talented is running closer to 33%. The school's response to discovering
> this problem has been to try to drop the students from the program.
>
> This is from a 1986 survey on the subject: "She is female, in her mid-20s to
> early 30s, and has been hurting herself since her teens. She tends to be
> middle- or upper-middle-class, intelligent, well-educated, and from a
> background of physical and/or sexual abuse or from a home with at least one
> alcoholic parent. Eating disorders were often reported."
>
> Of course, the irony of that is that if she "has been hurting herself since
> her teens," then their profile is obviously skewed.
>
> The amount of research on this in which the intelligence has been a factor
> included is very limited - I am seeking more. It is not a topic I have seen
> addressed much in the literature on girls, let alone gifted girls.
>
> Josh Shaine
> joshshaine@comcast.net
> (permission is explicitly given to write to me off-list)
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: SWHPhD@aol.com
Subject: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <1df.1e4b10a4.2db6e7e8@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=part1_1df.1e4b10a4.2db6e7e8_boundary

--part1_1df.1e4b10a4.2db6e7e8_boundary
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One aspect of underachievement which I have noticed in my clinical practice
(testing children for learning disabilities or other impediments to
achievement) is that schools are much more likely to identify boys as having
potential
learning problems. With girls, it is often the parents who identify
underachievement and seek to find the cause. Meanwhile, the schools are telling
the
parents that their daughters are lovely children, well-behaved, and that they
just
shouldn't put so much pressure on them. It is very frustrating (and I'd like
to see a little more chagrin when it turns out that, indeed, the girl is
gifted but has a learning disability, and that the parents were right all
along).
Susan Hammond

--part1_1df.1e4b10a4.2db6e7e8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT BA=
CK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">One aspect of underachievement wh=
ich I have noticed in my clinical practice (testing children for learning di=
sabilities or other impediments to achievement) is that schools are much mor=
e likely to identify boys as having potential learning problems.  With=20=
girls, it is often the parents who identify underachievement and seek to fin=
d the cause.  Meanwhile, the schools are telling the parents that their=
daughters are lovely children, well-behaved, and that they just shouldn't p=
ut so much pressure on them.  It is very frustrating (and I'd like to s=
ee a little more chagrin when it turns out that, indeed, the girl is gifted=20=
but has a learning disability, and that the parents were right all along).<B=
R>
             =20=
              =20=
Susan Hammond</FONT></HTML>

--part1_1df.1e4b10a4.2db6e7e8_boundary--

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:04:15 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB088F.86CB%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Mary, you raise some excellent questions!! the point is: how do we address
these complicated issues. What I believe is that while a diversity of
interests should be encouraged, that we must help girls to learn (at an
early age) to make choices. If they try to do too much and try to hard to
make everyone happy, I have found that translates into later issues re:
doing everything well all the time. I always think girls should focus on
what they love, but at a certain point, they also have to consider the
following:

1. Am I talented in what I love?

2. Can I find meaningful work in what I love?

3. When do I have to make some choices.

The parenting specialist at NAGC and our center, Dr. Robin Schader has dealt
with a daughter who faced the exact choices you are discussing and you may
want to eamil her at Robin Schader <robin.schader@uconn.edu> In the
meantime, I think one task of good parenting is to help young people grow up
gradually and make these decisions over time. I have a 15 year old gifted
girl at home (our youngest) and she loves drama and music. She wanted to be
on the stage, but has never gotten a lead role. She has a 5.1 grade point
average (out of 4) and is exceptional at writing. Over time, I have helped
her (carefully and sensitively) become more realistic about her dreams and
goals. Now she is shooting for trying to become a journalist who reviews
and critiques music, films, and theater. So, talented kids can combine
interests and talents in new ways and the choices have been gradual. Hope
that helps, me
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head

Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

> From: MEC <mec@growminds.com>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:44:56 -0400
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
> "Sally M. Reis" wrote:
>>
>> I also think that the issues related to multipotentiality
>> must be discussed. Girls have to learn to make choices.
>
> Regarding multi-potentiality and making choices; are you talking about
> career choices? If so, when do girls need to start making these choices?
>

> For instance, is it better to encourage a girl to focus on what she's
> very good at and loves to do (music), or on something she's very good at
> and finds interesting (medicine), but doesn't absolutely love? From a
> practical viewpoint medicine is usually a more lucrative career and she
> has the potential of saving lives or at least contributing to people's
> well-being, which could be emotionally satisfying. But being a
> professional musician may be more rewarding creatively and emotionally.
>
> My instinct is to encourage both, but at some point it appears that
> she'll need to decide which path to pursue wholeheartedly.
>
>> With that caveat in mind, educators and parents must help more
>> talented girls and women realize their abilities and potential.
>> This goal will only be accomplished by appropriate planning,
>> careful selection of choices, partners, and work environments,
>> and by helping them to develop personalities that take risks,

>> question authority, and ask ³why² more often.
>
> Choosing a college must be crucial in this process. Of course, there are
> excellent colleges that have strong music programs in addition to
> premed. But if a musician wants a performance career, they often choose
> a school specifically for musicians instead.
>
> As you might suspect this issue is causing some angst in our household
> right now. :)
>
> Mary
> --
> mailto:mec@growminds.com
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:03:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Cards2Sail@aol.com
Subject: Testing...
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <133.2df76212.2db6ea2b@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=part1_133.2df76212.2db6ea2b_boundary

--part1_133.2df76212.2db6ea2b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sorry folks - but I'm not getting anything and need to test my settings...

Pam

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Sorry folks - but I'm not getting a=
nything and need to test my settings...<BR>
<BR>
Pam</FONT></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:03:52 -0400
From: Elevenplus@aol.com
Subject: Re: ADMIN: please remove
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <13E60D5A.71B1F53C.0B26C17B@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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hello... although i enjoy all these, this time i need to withdraw from this
conference because i know i will not keep up thank you
Karen

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:08:04 -0500
From: Venkatappa Jambulapati <venkatappa_jambulapati@tnb.com>
Subject: Please unsubscribe from the list
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <s0854b08.001@gwsmtp.tnb.com>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:11:17 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042020042111.10392.408591F5000602A0000028982200745672FF91908693D18693939E@comca
st.net>

Hi Susan,
You wrote:
With girls, it is often the parents who identify underachievement and seek to
find the cause. Meanwhile, the schools are telling the parents that their
daughters are lovely children, well-behaved etc

"well-behaved" caught my attention. I visited Moab, Utah last week and in a
store filled with clothing and equipment for outdoor adventures - white water
river rafting, hummer safaris, mountain biking, etc there was a T-shirt with the
following saying:

No well-behaved woman will ever make history

I know you were focusing on learning disabilities in gifted girls, but
acceptable behavior i.e. well-behaved for the female gender is definitely an
aspect which is a barrier IMHO.

Sally_L

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:14:37 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Cc: Kris Fazzina <kmorgan@creativelearningpress.com>
Message-id: <BCAB0AFD.86D6%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This is also an area of passion for me. You are absolutely right. As long
as girls don't act out, they are not identified.

A new expanded edition of Susan Baum's book, To be Gifted and Learning
Disabled, is recently out by Creative Learning Press. It provides numerous
examples of the possibilities that exist when attention is paid to student¹s
strengths instead of their disabilities. If you are interested in this
expanded edition of the best book out there on the topic, please email Kris
Morgan at creative learning press. <kmorgan@creativelearningpress.com

Parents are the best identifiers of these kids.

In the study I did of gifted students with learning disabilities, I must
tell you all that without parental support, the ability to be able to pursue
the sports, hobbies, or extracurricular activities would have been lessened.
Many of the parents of participants in this study actively sought out
opportunities for their children to excel in order to compensate for their
poor performance in school. This appears to be a reciprocal relationship in
some ways. A child does poorly in school and his or her parents, sensing
that their child is bright and talented, look for alternative ways in which
the talent can be manifested. This, in turn, causes the parent to invest
time and capital into looking for ways to nurture talents and once this
occurred, the child began to feel better about his/her talents and begins to
think that achievement might be possible in other areas, such as school
performance. It was the development of these talents which often provided

these students with the belief that they could excel in something if they
worked hard at it, and if they could do something well, perhaps they could
do better in school if they applied themselves and worked harder at it.
This belief in themselves often caused them to work much harder at their
academic work. Ironically, the hard work was necessary because of their
learning disabilities, but it was the acquisition of this work ethic that
caused many of these students to work harder and become extremely successful
in college. This "cycle of reciprocal talents" existed for participants in
this study. Once they learned that they could excel in another area such as
athletics in or out of school, mountain biking, creating miniatures or vocal
talents out of school, they often began to believe they could achieve in
school; and, eventually, most did.

--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007

Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

> From: SWHPhD@aol.com
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
>
> One aspect of underachievement which I have noticed in my clinical practice
> (testing children for learning disabilities or other impediments to
> achievement) is that schools are much more likely to identify boys as having
> potential
> learning problems. With girls, it is often the parents who identify
> underachievement and seek to find the cause. Meanwhile, the schools are

> telling the
> parents that their daughters are lovely children, well-behaved, and that they
> just
> shouldn't put so much pressure on them. It is very frustrating (and I'd like
> to see a little more chagrin when it turns out that, indeed, the girl is
> gifted but has a learning disability, and that the parents were right all
> along).
> Susan Hammond
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:19:04 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB0C08.86DC%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I so agree. I often tell parents of girls (with apologies to those of you
who have read my book) that some parents concentrate too much on manners in
their talented daughters. I want us to raise gifted girls who speak out,
challenge authority, and ask too many questions!! Maybe the world would be a
different place if that happened. Thanks for raising that point, Sally
I will sign back on in 20 minutes. Going to grab a drink. me
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

> From: Sally_L@comcast.net
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:11:17 +0000
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
>
> Hi Susan,
> You wrote:
> With girls, it is often the parents who identify underachievement and seek to
> find the cause. Meanwhile, the schools are telling the parents that their
> daughters are lovely children, well-behaved etc
>
> "well-behaved" caught my attention. I visited Moab, Utah last week and in a
> store filled with clothing and equipment for outdoor adventures - white water

> river rafting, hummer safaris, mountain biking, etc there was a T-shirt with
> the following saying:
>
> No well-behaved woman will ever make history
>
> I know you were focusing on learning disabilities in gifted girls, but
> acceptable behavior i.e. well-behaved for the female gender is definitely an
> aspect which is a barrier IMHO.
>
> Sally_L
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:34:42 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB01A4.86B7%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary=B_3165323684_10348980

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3165323684_10348980
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Oh, these kinds of dilemmas make me sad!! First, celebrate her talents and
her many gifts and be proud of her--unequivocal love is the best medicine
for any child. Second, we need to try to fix the school before we fix her.
I am attaching an article that I wrote about underachievement based on my
experiences with my step son Mark. He is the reason I have done so much
research on this area. I believe that the school curricula should be fixed

before she is and I think that for some gifted kids, underachievement is
dropping out with dignity. I hope this helps you. I would support her
choices and help her to understand the consequences of her decisions. If
she is doing extremely well in some areas and less well in others, she will
still have choices for college, especially with high scores and awards. In
other words, support her and help her to understand her choices while trying
to change the school culture for bright kids. Good luck, Sally
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research Center
on the Gifted and Talented.

> From: Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:24:00 -0700 (PDT)
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
>
> --- "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu> wrote:
>> Why do some gifted and talented women achieve and gain prominence or
>> eminence while others who had as much or more potential fail to achieve the
>> dreams they had as girls?
>
> Hello Mrs. Reis,
> Let me add my Thanks for your time and willingness to do this conference. I
> was looking forward to your information because of our two wonderful
> daughters.
>
>
> Our 11yr old is in a full time GT program and doing quite well at the moment,
> it is the other daughter that our concern is about, currently. Our 14 year
> old
> is extremely gifted with writing skills, but her lack of organization skills
> is

> what conserns us at the moment. She will be awarded first place for our state
> in a national writting contest she entered this saturday, but we fear she will
> have a hard time getting into anything but a community college because of her
> grades if her trend toward underachievement continues. She wants to be a
> author of fantasy novels/childrens literature etc. Her poetry is so deep and
> thought provoking, she is really amazing. She attends a full time middle
> school gifted and talented program, and Aces the tests, and core things that
> make up the subject of the curriculum, but has a difficult time doing all of
> the excuse me-busy work the teachers require of the kids. I understand and
> agree the busy work is sometimes rediculas, but it is this 'busy work' that is
> dragging her grades in the gutter. I wish that along with the transcripts we
> could forward info on what the grades were generated from.
>

> I guess my question is this, how do we support her thrilling ability to create
> while still having to 'conform' to the schools grading system, so she will be
> able to keep her dreams and ability alive and be able to achieve her goals?
>
> Thank You,
> Ranae

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:23:34 +0200
From: Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <001301c4271d$bc5ddf60$8a7ba8c0@spc2>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> Behalf Of Josh Shaine
>
> Sally asked:
> I am not sure that it is any more prevalent in gifted girls. Do you have
> any information on this, Josh?
>
> I have a couple of different ways of getting there, Sally. From the
> research I have read, "estimates are that 1000 per 100,000, or 1%, of
> Americans self-injure," but from both direct observation and from
> discussion
> with a few other folks in the field and with the girls themselves, the
> incidence at many of the programs and schools for the gifted (as
> well as in
> the community with which I work) the incidence is higher than
> that - perhaps
> as much as 10 times the rate.

I think it is VERY difficult to say anything useful based upon such figures.
I'm convinced that the incidence of ANY 'problem' is higher among the
children:
- of parents that are a member of an e-mail list, or
- who visit a gifted consultant, or
- in gifted programs
- ...

'Problems' (of any kind) are driving quite a lot (I didn't say 'ALL' or even
'MOST'!!!) of people towards lists, consultants, ...
The result is that we'll find a LOT more 'problems' (like 'twice
exceptional') among the gifted population in those 'locations' than among
the gifted population 'in general'. Simply because in a lot of cases it were
the 'problems' that motivated the parents to start looking for help in the
first place...

Other example: if the GDC in Denver is reporting that "x% of the gifted
children are visual-spatial learners", then I always think that this should
rather be ""x% of the gifted children tested at the GDC (known across the
globe for its knowledge about VSL) are visual-spatial learners"...

Just my 2c, of course, and slightly off-topic in this conference ;-)

Luc K (Felix jun98)

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:28:33 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB0E41.86E3%srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Well said, Luc. Sally
--
Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
Professor and Department Head
Department of Educational Psychology
University of Connecticut
2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
Storrs, CT 06269-3007
Ph: 860-486-0618
Fax: 860-486-2900
sally.reis@uconn.edu

> From: Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu

> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:23:34 +0200
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>
>> Behalf Of Josh Shaine
>>
>> Sally asked:
>> I am not sure that it is any more prevalent in gifted girls. Do you have
>> any information on this, Josh?
>>
>> I have a couple of different ways of getting there, Sally. From the
>> research I have read, "estimates are that 1000 per 100,000, or 1%, of
>> Americans self-injure," but from both direct observation and from
>> discussion
>> with a few other folks in the field and with the girls themselves, the
>> incidence at many of the programs and schools for the gifted (as
>> well as in
>> the community with which I work) the incidence is higher than
>> that - perhaps
>> as much as 10 times the rate.
>
> I think it is VERY difficult to say anything useful based upon such figures.
> I'm convinced that the incidence of ANY 'problem' is higher among the
> children:
> - of parents that are a member of an e-mail list, or

> - who visit a gifted consultant, or
> - in gifted programs
> - ...
>
> 'Problems' (of any kind) are driving quite a lot (I didn't say 'ALL' or even
> 'MOST'!!!) of people towards lists, consultants, ...
> The result is that we'll find a LOT more 'problems' (like 'twice
> exceptional') among the gifted population in those 'locations' than among
> the gifted population 'in general'. Simply because in a lot of cases it were
> the 'problems' that motivated the parents to start looking for help in the
> first place...
>
> Other example: if the GDC in Denver is reporting that "x% of the gifted
> children are visual-spatial learners", then I always think that this should
> rather be ""x% of the gifted children tested at the GDC (known across the
> globe for its knowledge about VSL) are visual-spatial learners"...
>
> Just my 2c, of course, and slightly off-topic in this conference ;-)
>
> Luc K (Felix jun98)
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:28:26 -0400
From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200404202128.i3KLSSWh019690@localhost.localdomain>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Luc -

May I drop you a note off list?

Josh Shaine

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:32:08 -0500
From: Joni <lawver@direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040420162120.026cb7e8@pop3.direcway.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

At 04:25 PM 4/20/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Women spend their lives moving from one creative act to another and they
>find satisfaction from their creative expression in many different outlets.
>I have found that men, on the other hand, see an end goal and move directly
>toward the pursuit of that creative goal. That is why men are able to
>achieve goals and fame more quickly than women, but I think that women have
>a richer creative journey, find joy in the diversity of their creative acts,
>and in the end, enjoy the creative process so much more (Reis, 2003, p.
>212X)

Could that way each of us views ourselves also be involved. My DH (dear

Hubby) and other men I know seem to value themselves based on their
job. It is a major component of who they are. The women I know don't seem
to place the same value on jobs being central to who they are. They value
other things as well.

I'm also of the feeling that there is so much that women do that isn't
valued by our society in the same way as traditionally male
accomplishments, but that those things are even more important to society
as a whole. I attended a presentation by a Native American last week and
during the question and answer portion, the position of women in his tribe
in 1804 came up. The picture I've always gotten is that the men were the
head of the tribe, the women little more than possessions, but instead I
learned that at that time at least with the Otoes:

Women owned all the land and the home
They had the right to vote in the tribe
They could divorce a man by simply packing his things and throwing them outside

Yes, they worked extremely hard, as they did all the farming while the men
did the hunting and fishing. Because the men were the ones that obtained
the furs that the white man valued, the white perspective was that the
women were not valuable members of the society.

By only looking at certain things as valuable, I think we do that to
ourselves -- powerful jobs, money and awards are not the only measure of
success

- Joni (mailto:lawver@direcway.com)

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:34:19 -0500
From: Joni <lawver@direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040420163324.026ca408@pop3.direcway.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

At 04:34 PM 4/20/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>I would support her
>choices and help her to understand the consequences of her decisions. If
>she is doing extremely well in some areas and less well in others, she will
>still have choices for college, especially with high scores and awards. In
>other words, support her and help her to understand her choices while trying
>to change the school culture for bright kids. Good luck, Sally

Homeschooling herself is probably also a good option. Colleges are
becoming accepting of homeschooled highschoolers and she can design a
program for herself that builds on her strengths.

- Joni (mailto:lawver@direcway.com)

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:41:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: SWHPhD@aol.com
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <1e8.1e427609.2db6f31c@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=part1_1e8.1e427609.2db6f31c_boundary

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In a message dated 4/20/04 5:12:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Sally_L@comcast.net writes:

> I know you were focusing on learning disabilities in gifted girls, but
> acceptable behavior i.e. well-behaved for the female gender is definitely an
> aspect which is a barrier IMHO.
>

I agree. There certainly continues to be a double standard for acceptable
behavior in males and females (the old assertiveness or aggression issue).
Susan Hammond

--part1_1e8.1e427609.2db6f31c_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT BA=
CK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/20/04 5:12:0=
8 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Sally_L@comcast.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I know you were focusing on lea=
rning disabilities in gifted girls, but acceptable behavior i.e. well-behave=
d for the female gender is definitely an aspect which is a barrier IMHO.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I agree.  There certainly continues to be a double standard for accepta=
ble behavior in males and females (the old assertiveness or aggression issue=
).<BR>
             =20=
              =20=

Susan Hammond</FONT></HTML>

--part1_1e8.1e427609.2db6f31c_boundary--

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:49:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: SWHPhD@aol.com
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <121.2dcd2c12.2db6f4d7@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=part1_121.2dcd2c12.2db6f4d7_boundary

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In a message dated 4/20/04 5:12:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
srr02004@ad.uconn.edu writes:

> In the study I did of gifted students with learning disabilities, I must
> tell you all that without parental support, the ability to be able to pursue
> the sports, hobbies, or extracurricular activities would have been lessened.
> Many of the parents of participants in this study actively sought out
> opportunities for their children to excel in order to compensate for their
> poor performance in school.

One of the things I always stress with the parents I work with is that there
has to be a balance between remediating the weakness and leaving time to
expand upon strengths. A child who is a great athlete/artist/scientist/etc.
will
certainly need to spend a significant amount of time continuing that activity,
both to maintain self-esteem and to enjoy life. At the same time, the earlier
remediation occurs, the better the results; so it is important to prioritize
interventions rather than working on everything at once. It's also critical,
I think, to find ways to continue to challenge gifted/LD kids at an
appropriate level - this can mean finding alternate means of assessment,
alternate paths
to learning, or simply dealing with inappropriate gate-keeping in higher
level courses. Otherwise, they become bored in school and don't develop
cognitively.

I'll look into the book referral; thanks.

I'm off to a family dinner; I'll try to check back later.

Susan Hammond

--part1_121.2dcd2c12.2db6f4d7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT BA=
CK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMI=
LY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/20/04 5:12:3=
1 PM Eastern Daylight Time, srr02004@ad.uconn.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In the study I did of gifted st=
udents with learning disabilities, I must<BR>
tell you all that without parental support, the ability to be able to pursue=
<BR>
the sports, hobbies, or extracurricular activities would have been lessened.=
<BR>
Many of the parents of participants in this study actively sought out<BR>
opportunities for their children to excel in order to compensate for their<B=
R>

poor performance in school.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
One of the things I always stress with the parents I work with is that there=
has to be a balance between remediating the weakness and leaving time to ex=
pand upon strengths.  A child who is a great athlete/artist/scientist/e=
tc. will certainly need to spend a significant amount of time continuing tha=
t activity, both to maintain self-esteem and to enjoy life.  At the sam=
e time, the earlier remediation occurs, the better the results; so it is imp=
ortant to prioritize interventions rather than working on everything at once=
.  It's also critical, I think, to find ways to continue to challenge g=
ifted/LD kids at an appropriate level - this can mean finding alternate mean=
s of assessment, alternate paths to learning, or simply dealing with inappro=
priate gate-keeping in higher level courses.  Otherwise, they become bo=
red in school and don't develop cognitively.<BR>

             <BR=
>
I'll look into the book referral; thanks.<BR>
<BR>
I'm off to a family dinner; I'll try to check back later.<BR>
<BR>
             =20=
              =20=
Susan Hammond</FONT></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:51:07 -0500
From: Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
Subject: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive development
for bright young girls?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <OF77F6860C.AB3B0023-ON86256E7C.0073F425-86256E7C.00780D19@hmco.com>
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Sally, I'm enjoying this conference. It's wonderful to have someone with
your expertise available for discussions! I hope this comment doesn't seem
like it's too far out of left field. But your excellent introductory
remarks got me thinking...

One issue in which I've been interested for some time is differential rates
of cognitive maturation between boys and girls, and how this differential
rate plays out in individuals of different levels of intelligence. Girls in
general develop more rapidly than boys in general cognition. In general,
children who are high in intelligence develop more rapidly than others.

Logically, gifted girls should develop more rapidly than anyone.

Perhaps such accelerated cognitive development carries its own risks for
the young girl.

I have done some early recollections research with male and female
scientists and mathematicians, and with a general college student
population. Women in my samples had earlier mean age of earliest memory
compared to men, consistent with the presumed relation between cognitive
development (with girls advancing faster than boys) and age of earliest
memory. In addition, earlier early recollections were associated with more
negative affect, more evidence of terror, anxiety, blood, injury,
loneliness, frustration, rage, etc. The brighter the adult occupational
group (among the scientists and mathematicians; based on others' research
of occupational differences in intelligence), the earlier the mean age of
early recollection. Within each group of scientists and mathematicians, the

women in the group had earlier mean age of earliest recollection than the
men. I have found a modest negative correlation between age of earliest
reported memory and an indicator of intelligence (it was about -.18; I
know, not much!). The one female mathematician I had as a participant in
the scientist/mathematician study said her earliest memory was at a very
early age but was simply too terrifying to relate.

But perhaps, as I suggested, being a very bright young girl may also carry
its own risks due to very early accelerated cognitive development. Perhaps
it puts very intelligent girls at risk relative to boys (brighter or
otherwise) who mature more slowly. Such risks may not be cognitive in
nature; they might show up in, say, personality development and
psychopathology. They might show up with early precocious cognitive
development that somehow becomes "derailed" in later childhood.

The only theory I can propose is similar to what Frank Herbert suggested in

his Dune novels: that children who become conscious early and have to try
to understand the world necessarily find it a more terrifying place. They
may develop a personality that helps them to cope with the world as if it
were a terrifying place. Once developed, personality tends to develop means
to protect and preserve itself, and continues to view the world in the same
way as it always had.

Of course, these are speculations and generalizations.

I was wondering if you had any thoughts about this...

Andrew Carson

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:53:15 -0400
From: MEC <mec@growminds.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@NEIU.EDU
Message-id: <40859BCB.99ED46C1@growminds.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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"Sally M. Reis" wrote:
>
> at a certain point, they also have to consider the
> following:
>
> 1. Am I talented in what I love?
>
> 2. Can I find meaningful work in what I love?
>
> 3. When do I have to make some choices.

I like these questions!

> The parenting specialist at NAGC and our center, Dr. Robin Schader has dealt
> with a daughter who faced the exact choices you are discussing and you may
> want to eamil her at Robin Schader <robin.schader@uconn.edu>

I think I will, thanks.

> I think one task of good parenting is to help young people grow up
> gradually and make these decisions over time.

Yes, I'd like her to try lots of different things, and as you say, "grow

up gradually" for another 3 years or so before starting college
fulltime. But she's the kind of person who likes to make decisions
(INTJ, I think) and feels more at peace with herself when she has made a
decision.

> Now she is shooting for trying to become a journalist who reviews
> and critiques music, films, and theater. So, talented kids can combine
> interests and talents in new ways and the choices have been gradual.

Absolutely! I also remind my daughter that gifted people often have more
than one career in their lifetime, and that there will be different
career opportunities 20 years from now. For instance, personal computers
and the Internet weren't around when I was in college, but within 10
years of graduating I was running a business in the field of computer
graphics. So whatever she learns as she explores things that interest
her (math and science), and things she enjoys (writing), and things she
loves (music), may end up being applied to a career in novel ways that

we can't predict today.

Helping her (carefully and sensitively) is a challenge. :^/

> Hope that helps, me

It does, thanks!

Mary C
--
mailto:mec@growminds.com

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:55:25 +0200
From: Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@NEIU.EDU
Message-id: <003001c42722$2f8604a0$8a7ba8c0@spc2>
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> Luc -
>
> May I drop you a note off list?
>
> Josh Shaine

Sure. Any time, any place ;-)

Luc

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:56:32 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB14D0.2176%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
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That is true. There are over 20,000 members of the home schooling
association in California alone and the reasons that most folks home school
is either religious or academic. Of course, this option does not work for
everyone, Sally

> From: Joni <lawver@direcway.com>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:34:19 -0500
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
> At 04:34 PM 4/20/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>> I would support her
>> choices and help her to understand the consequences of her decisions. If
>> she is doing extremely well in some areas and less well in others, she will
>> still have choices for college, especially with high scores and awards. In

>> other words, support her and help her to understand her choices while trying
>> to change the school culture for bright kids. Good luck, Sally
>
> Homeschooling herself is probably also a good option. Colleges are
> becoming accepting of homeschooled highschoolers and she can design a
> program for herself that builds on her strengths.
>
>
> - Joni (mailto:lawver@direcway.com)
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:00:26 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042020042200.10175.40859D7A0001EC1F000027BF2200761438FF91908693D18693939E@comca
st.net>

Sally Reis wrote:

> Women spend their lives moving from one creative act to another and they
> find satisfaction from their creative expression in many different outlets.
> I have found that men, on the other hand, see an end goal and move directly
> toward the pursuit of that creative goal. That is why men are able to
> achieve goals and fame more quickly than women, but I think that women have
> a richer creative journey, find joy in the diversity of their creative acts,
> and in the end, enjoy the creative process so much more (Reis, 2003, p.
> 212X)
>
> Women have different ways of demonstrating their creativity, and perhaps
> because they are so frequently involved in multiple tasks, they are less
> capable of focusing only on one aspect of creative work. My own research
> suggests that some diversity in their creativity occurs because many
> talented women enjoy and derive pleasure from diverse creative acts and the
> diversification of their creative potential. Because women have had to

> struggle to find a place for themselves in many work situations, they have
> not yet had the time or experience to be able to engage in the single-minded
> devotion to work that many of their male peers have had for decades.
SNIP

. Those who want to pursue their work
> with passion and single mindedness may have to make some difficult decisions

> about their lives, and these decisions are still different from the
> decisions that similarly talented men make.

Snip

>
> Here is the issue with diversification and seeking balance: if gifted
> females continue to try to do so much and diversify their talents in the way

> described above...what does that mean? Does this mean that we will have
> fewer (even than now) Nobel or Pulitzer Prize winners? Sally

I just want to share a connection in my mind. It deals with the word
"underachievement" That word really makes me bristle and I feel it ties
into this question, which I really can't answer fully - yet some thoughts I
will share.

Since women diversify and seek balance and it takes place "over" the lifetime
should
gifted women be labeled with "underachievers"? i.e. less/not a Nobel or
Pulitzer Prize
winner.

Hmmm how can we refrase this and indoing so, does it do a diservice to woman in
being viewed "equal" or equally recognized?

Maybe we should celebrate with words which positively frame a woman's
experience(s)
Maybe we shouldn't behave so well and learn to speak out.

For example think of some male Nobel or
Pulitzer prize winners.

Didn't Einstein's first wife go over all of his work and correct the
math/calculating errors? Obviously to do that she must have been extremely
mathematically gifted. why wasn't she given any credit? Her viewpoint that
it was her husband's work? She was only helping?

Also wasn't there a women who actually did the work involving the x-ray or
a DNA model, yet the men took the credit and she didn't speak out and
not given credit until much much later? Again - it wouldn't be woman like
behavior to cause a ruckus?

I don't know where I am going with all these thoughts, but speaking out
shouldn't be labeled un-ladylike or the "need" to receive credit or public
recognition i.e. Nobel or Puliter Prize.

This behavior was noted in Dr. Reis' book in coeducational classrooms.

Hmmm, there was information about co-educational classes
where two men out of 25 or 30 women - dominated the discussions in the class.
The attitude of the women reflected when asked about their behavior I think
indicated that they recognized the needs of the men to "talk"

and it was fine with them "not" to talk that much during class and to be
publically
active in their participation.

Isn't that just odd - that men joke about how much woman talk talk talk, but
in classroom situations that is not really true per what I read and or have
experienced myself? LOL

So, the behaviors in the classroom and the behaviors in the world are duplicated
in the majority of times.

I certainly haven't solved the question, posed by Dr. Reis, but going back
to my T-shirt comment - No women who behave will ever make history.

One more thought, yes random LOL Oh, no I think I have spoken too boldly LOL

Sally_L

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:01:29 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB15F9.217E%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=B_3165328889_531204

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Susan, you are right, but the problems are that the remediation stategies
are often inappropriate for bright kids with LD. And often times, they are
tried over and over the years with little success. So, monitoring and
regular assessment are critical. Sally

From: SWHPhD@aol.com
Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:49:11 -0400 (EDT)
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls

In a message dated 4/20/04 5:12:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
srr02004@ad.uconn.edu writes:

to prioritize interventions rather than working on everything at once. It's
also critical, I think, to find ways to continue to challenge gifted/LD kids
at an appropriate level - this can mean finding alternate means of
assessment, alternate paths to learning, or simply dealing with
inappropriate gate-keeping in higher level courses. Otherwise, they become
bored in school and don't develop cognitively.

I'll look into the book referral; thanks.

I'm off to a family dinner; I'll try to check back later.

Susan Hammond

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Susan, you are right, b=
ut the problems are that the remediation stategies are often inappropriate f=

or bright kids with LD.  And often times, they are tried over and over =
the years with little success.  So, monitoring and regular assessment a=
re critical.  Sally<BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"><B>From: </B>SWHPhD@aol.com<BR>
<B>Reply-To: </B>OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:49:11 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
<B>To: </B>OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">In a messag=
e dated 4/20/04 5:12:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, srr02004@ad.uconn.edu writ=
es:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"=
>In the study I did of gifted students with learning disabilities, I must<BR=
>
tell you all that without parental support, the ability to be able to pursu=
e<BR>
the sports, hobbies, or extracurricular activities would have been lessened=
.<BR>

Many of the parents of participants in this study actively sought out<BR>
opportunities for their children to excel in order to compensate for their<=
BR>
poor performance in school.<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Arial=
"><BR>
<BR>
One of the things I always stress with the parents I work with is that ther=
e has to be a balance between remediating the weakness and leaving time to e=
xpand upon strengths.  A child who is a great athlete/artist/scientist/=
etc. will certainly need to spend a significant amount of time continuing th=
at activity, both to maintain self-esteem and to enjoy life.  At the sa=
me time, the earlier remediation occurs, the better the results; so it is im=
portant to prioritize interventions rather than working on everything at onc=
e.  It's also critical, I think, to find ways to continue to challenge =
gifted/LD kids at an appropriate level - this can mean finding alternate mea=

ns of assessment, alternate paths to learning, or simply dealing with inappr=
opriate gate-keeping in higher level courses.  Otherwise, they become b=
ored in school and don't develop cognitively.<BR>
            &nb=
sp;<BR>
I'll look into the book referral; thanks.<BR>
<BR>
I'm off to a family dinner; I'll try to check back later.<BR>
<BR>
            &nb=
sp;            &=
nbsp;       Susan Hammond</FONT><FONT FAC=
E=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT></SPAN>
</BODY>
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:06:14 -0500
From: "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
Subject: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <003d01c42723$b29515b0$bfaae144@nngco.mehcpipelines.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Sally -
Thank you for doing this conference.

As with many here, I am learning so much about myself as I learn about how
giftedness affects my children. I graduated highschool in 1978 (not at the
top of the class), just before class equality for the sexes was established
in JR and HS. I dreamed of becoming an architect, though I was not allowed
to take drafting in JR - rather I was required to take an extra year of home
economics (which I hated). Unfortunately, I was too shy at the time to make
an issue about this discrimination.

By highschool, I was sure than I did not want to follow in my mother's
footsteps. She was a SAHM who loved me very much but was never very happy.

I wanted desperately to grow up, leave home, and my small midwest hometown.
I saw education as the way to obtain freedom to decide what I wanted to do,
where I wanted to live, and enough money to do those things. So I selected
for my senior schedule, Chemistry, Calculus, a college level
Chemistry/Physics, World Literature, individual drafting, and required
Economics. My hs counselor looked at this and remarked, "Why do you want to
take all this?" So much for encouragement! It was a tough academic year -
but I made it - no scholarships though since my grades averaged B+. This
also made me sure I was not gifted since I had to work hard for grades that
did not shine.

In my third semester of college, I found that architecture required a 6 year
degree and job opportunities were rare. I couldn't financially afford 6
years of school, plus I was increasingly disillusioned with the architecture
college, so I switched over to engineering. The engineering counselor asked

me which engineering discipline I wanted to major in. When I said I wasn't
sure, he suggested Civil Engineering because there were more girls there.
<sigh> I selected Mechanical Engineering as the most general.

I eventually launched into my engineering career. I defined myself entirely
by my career. I shuddered when my parents told others that I had married as
the first identifying factor about my life. As far as I was concerned,
finding someone to marry was pure luck, obtaining an engineering degree and
career was pure hard work!

After working 9 years and having my career firmly established, we decided to
have children - and that's when the balancing act started. It has been
tough. Our 11 yo PG son needed more than a part-time parent from day 1.
For the first 4 years, I tried working full-time, but then a second son
arrived, and I just couldn't figure a way to divide myself in enough pieces.
The last year I worked full-time, I was on the road 60% of the time - which

to some degree had been terribly fun. I had meetings at the hotel in
Manhattan where Jerry Lewis was doing Damn Yankees, ate lunch at a meeting
break in DC overlooking the White House, and spent a week at a conference in
New Orleans on Bourbon street. I really don't know how working parents do
it. I simply could not do it all. 5 weeks on pregnancy bedrest helped me
have enough time to realize that something had to give.

So now my job is part-time as an engineering contractor to the same company
(though I've lost my years of service and all benefits), and I homeschool
our oldest. It's been very hard for me to switch my self-image from
engineer to homeschool mom. I haven't been terribly involved in the Society
of Women Engineers because I can't honestly suggest to other young women
that they can do it all. At least in my experience, something had to give.
I still do hang onto my career because I need that mental stimulation, but I

don't have the stance that I once had. Meanwhile, my husband's engineering
career has taken off. I had learned to use my racing brain to multi-task at
work very well. Unfortunately, this self-driven aspect of my personality
does not transfer well to full-time childcare. I do find, though, that my
creative skills that aimed me toward architecture do not get nurtured enough
currently. Maybe in my next life.

I wish I knew how to teach my children to have just the right amount of
self-drive - finding that balance between career and family. I developed my
drive almost to spite my parents and situation - each time someone implied,
'you can't do this' - I had to show them I could!

Lisa C.

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:07:06 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB174A.218A%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
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You are correct, and I believe there will be many more examples of how young
girls change careers as they mature. One thing she has to know, however:
any girl born today has a life of work ahead of her. The differential
figures on women working vs men working are fast departing. Both men and
women born 10 or 15 years ago will work for over 40 years in their adult
lives, according to futurists.

Here is something to tell your daughter. I have friends who are doctors at
the University of Connecticut Med School. They all loved music as kids and
you know what they are doing now? They (for fun) play in a band and they
are very good!! They occasionally do weddings, etc. I love that image.

> From: MEC <mec@growminds.com>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:53:15 -0400
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
> "Sally M. Reis" wrote:
>>
>> at a certain point, they also have to consider the
>> following:
>>
>> 1. Am I talented in what I love?
>>
>> 2. Can I find meaningful work in what I love?
>>
>> 3. When do I have to make some choices.
>
> I like these questions!
>
>> The parenting specialist at NAGC and our center, Dr. Robin Schader has dealt
>> with a daughter who faced the exact choices you are discussing and you may
>> want to eamil her at Robin Schader <robin.schader@uconn.edu>
>
> I think I will, thanks.
>
>> I think one task of good parenting is to help young people grow up
>> gradually and make these decisions over time.
>
> Yes, I'd like her to try lots of different things, and as you say, "grow
> up gradually" for another 3 years or so before starting college

> fulltime. But she's the kind of person who likes to make decisions
> (INTJ, I think) and feels more at peace with herself when she has made a
> decision.
>
>> Now she is shooting for trying to become a journalist who reviews
>> and critiques music, films, and theater. So, talented kids can combine
>> interests and talents in new ways and the choices have been gradual.
>
> Absolutely! I also remind my daughter that gifted people often have more
> than one career in their lifetime, and that there will be different
> career opportunities 20 years from now. For instance, personal computers
> and the Internet weren't around when I was in college, but within 10
> years of graduating I was running a business in the field of computer
> graphics. So whatever she learns as she explores things that interest
> her (math and science), and things she enjoys (writing), and things she
> loves (music), may end up being applied to a career in novel ways that
> we can't predict today.
>

> Helping her (carefully and sensitively) is a challenge. :^/
>
>> Hope that helps, me
>
> It does, thanks!
>
> Mary C
> --
> mailto:mec@growminds.com
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:09:51 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <004901c42724$34be7720$3c90b041@DGNNTN11>
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>rather than working 60 hours a week to stay competitive. Maybe this "new
concept" shift as >mentioned in this article will really be a boon for those
in the legal profession, but what about >those jobs in the math and
sciences?
>
> Sally_L

As a woman who figured out only after having children that I might have had
more potential than I thought when I was young, I have made many choices and
career "swerves" within the sciences over the years (I'm still swerving
violently as we "speak" here, but not at the moment "gainfully employed").
Although I do not regret any of my choices and am often amazed at how one
educational or career experience (or parenting experience) has so often led

to another opportunity (often one that I would not have predicted in a
million years), I do often find myself frustrated at having to jump through
hoops once again to prove my worth in a new environment.

I have heard this from other "zig zag women" I've met (I picked that term up
from a magazine article in around 1996/97 -- the year that I quit my 16 year
PhDless biomedical research career to stay home with my then two year old
twins), but I have to say I have also heard it from my husband (46), my
father (77) and other gifted men whose careers have "evolved" over the years
rather than followed a straight path to wherever they found themselves in
their 40s or 50s. As a matter of fact, my 36 year old brother-in-law is
applying to law school this year -- the last person in the world one would
have expected to go into law, but his other degrees and work and life
experiences have convinced him that he can make his "mark" best if he has a
law degree!

I wonder how much impact a person's childhood self concept (knowing they are
"smart" or "gifted" and really believing it when their parents tell them
"you can do anything") has on their future achievement. How many "zig zag"
careers are the result of choices happily made by someone who feels that
they were truly capable of "doing it all" but chose not to, and how many are
choices made -- maybe happily -- because of lack of self confidence?

In my own case, the most distressing part is that it seems so apparent to my
son and daughter at the particular age they are now (9, finishing 4th grade)
that the choices able women make [no matter how glad we are that we have
made them and how much we believe that the diverse experiences we have had
because of those choices is actually strengthening our potential for future
achievements as well as benefiting our family at the time] make us "appear"
to be less successful than we really are/have been and that it will impact
their choices in the future.

Actually, I think I'm going to ask them a couple of questions since they
tell me they "don't have any homework" again tonight, and see what kind of
feedback I get from two 9 year olds....

Another comment I want to make has to do with the effect of relationships on
achievement for women. I know many "dual gifted/dual career" couples and
many "dual gifted/sometimes dual career/sometimes single career couples" who
met early in life and have no regrets. I am one of them, and honestly, the
track I was on before I met my husband at 17 is likely to have left me more
of an "underachiever" much earlier in life and without the confidence to
realize that I can make another choice down the road when the time is right.
He was the one who convinced me two years after we met that I wouldn't flunk
out of college if I changed my major from what was then (in 1975) the
"default major" for girls who had no clue what to do in college --
elementary ed (ironic isn't it, that I am now passionate about getting more

science into elementary schools and hoping to go back to education in my
"next" career?) -- to microbiology, even though I had taken virtually no
math or science after my sophmore year in highschool.

Speaking of choices, it's time to go sign my son up for fall soccer because
my husband is out of town at a conference. (But he took his three students
with him -- two male grad students and a female undergrad from the honors
college -- so I guess my current choices and ability to attend conferences
only on-line are indirectly impacting a young gifted girl who will get more
time from her professor because of his wife's choices -- is that a
rationalization or what???)

I'll let you know later what my kids' current feelings are about the
different gifted women they know in various jobs.

Susan Grammer

----- Original Message -----
From: <Sally_L@comcast.net>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Finding a balance

> Dr. Reis,

> Yes, finding a balance is so very important. By coincidence there is an
article in a Salt Lake newspaper which may be very interesting for list
members to read http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595057355,00.html
> Often women underachieve by accepting jobs which allows them to more time
with family rather than working 60 hours a week to stay competitive. Maybe
this "new concept" shift as mentioned in this article will really be a boon
for those in the legal profession, but what about those jobs in the math and
sciences?
>
> Sally_L
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:15:07 -0500
From: Donna Langlois White <donna2143@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@NEIU.EDU
Message-id: <005101c42724$f0a41e90$dc1c6e44@CPQ50832916483>
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I haven't read this thread but I will make a few comments. I graduated high
school in 1975 when we were told that we (women) could do anything. We could
do it all. No one was there however to show us how to do that. Just like
Lisa I was not allowed to take certain classes in school, I received no
encouragement from my guidance counselor, etc. I want to say for the record
that women have been sold a bill of goods.We can do it all but we're not
going to do anything to the best of our ability. When I was in college at
age 35, my Grandmother said "why don't you just knock off all this college
stuff and find a good husband". So much for expecting encouragement from my

family. I was divorced, working, going to school and just beginning to learn
that public school was going to be a continual disaster for my child.

I would love to pursue a second master's and I would like more time to
myself but having a twice exceptional kid consumes my life. I thought when
I had a baby I loved him, he'd grow, he'd go off to school, I could attend
PTA meetings, help on field trips, he'd graduate high school, etc. etc.
Instead it's been a full time job just getting him through school to this
point and we take that on a day to day basis. I would love a better job in
my chosen career but have to settle because I need the flexibility afforded
me at my current job.

I've learned over the years that my needs have to take a back seat to his
and he truly needs me to get him ready for life in a much more involved
manner that "normal" parents.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
I haven't been terribly involved in the Society

> of Women Engineers because I can't honestly suggest to other young women
> that they can do it all.
>
> I wish I knew how to teach my children to have just the right amount of
> self-drive - finding that balance between career and family. I developed
my
> drive almost to spite my parents and situation - each time someone
implied,
> 'you can't do this' - I had to show them I could!
>
> Lisa C.

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:13:51 -0700
From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <4085A09F.7090607@thegoodwins.com>
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Sally M. Reis wrote:

>That is true. There are over 20,000 members of the home schooling
>association in California alone and the reasons that most folks home school
>is either religious or academic. Of course, this option does not work for
>everyone, Sally
>
>

Hi, Sally -- Would you mind if I contact you offlist about this?

Thanks!
Corin Goodwin <corin @ thegoodwins.com> <-- remove spaces
HomeSchool Association of California
Co-chair, Legislative Committee
Adviser, Gifted/Special Needs

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:28:10 +0200
From: Susan <les@pandora.be>
Subject: Putting the needs of others first
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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Quote from Sally: "Not all gifted females experience the same issues, but
trends have been found in research about talented women that identify a
combination of the following contributing reasons: dilemmas about abilities
and talents, personal decisions about family, ambivalence of parents and
teachers toward developing high levels of potential, decisions about duty
and caring (putting the needs of others first) as opposed to pursuing one¹s
own talents and a host of other personal, religious, and social issues."

- My daughter of 4 is already distinctly showing 'putting the needs of
others first' behavior. F.e.: her older brother (turns 7 this summer) is

quite good in raising his voice when he doesn't get what he thinks should
come to him; my daughter often responds to his behavior by giving him what
he asks for, even if that means she'll have to set her own wishes or needs
aside. She'll give him her last Easter egg, although I gave them both the
same amount to go with, she'll hand him the toy she's picked out to play
with first, etc. I see this kind of behavior from her every day, also
towards the other family members. When she 'senses' she can make us happy by
taking some kind of action or by pleasing us with 'good behavior' (the kind
of behavior she guesses we will appreciate most at that time), she's very
eager to comply, even if that means she has to set herself aside and/or has
to control her emotions.

For me, as her mother, it's sometimes heartbreaking to watch her act like
this, 'cause I can imagine how difficult it must be for a little girl her
age to set herself aside. At times, I would rather see her not giving in and

enjoy what's hers, or letting her emotions go, but I hesitate to intervene,
because on the other end, I think it's very special that she is able to give
up her own needs for someone she loves. And when I do intervene between her
and her brother, or refuse what she wants to give me because I'd like her to
enjoy it herself, I often see the disappointment in her eyes, because I
won't let her do things the way she wants to.
I find it very difficult to respond to this trait of hers - wondering if it
really is a trait she has in her and which she has already developed to this
point (which is quite remarkable for her age, in my opinion) - and I'm not
quite sure which response is best: should I let her take the action she
feels like and has already chosen (putting the needs of others first, that
is), or should I encourage her to become a bit more 'selfish' and let her
brother shout, or keep her last cookie for herself instead of giving it to
me?

Susan

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:28:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: RDlouruf@cs.com
Subject: Re: who goes for help
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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Dear Dr. Reis:
I am so happy you are doing this conference. I hand out your Internal
Barriers article to mothers of gifted boys and girls all the time.
I am responding to the conversation started by Luc, in particular,
about who gets identified as gifted. I am a private consultant for gifted
families and wanted to respond to what Luc said about who comes in for help. I
have
interested clients take the Myers-Briggs or the child's equivalent - the
whole family, if possible. I have found some interesting patterns among mothers
(the ones who usually make the decisions about assessment and education issues)
and the children they "haul" in for assessment and help. I'd heard that
other experts around the country had found a large, large majority of the
children
brought in were INFP's, although that is apparently not the most common
gifted type preference. This is what I see, too. As it turns out, a great many
of
the mothers have a "J" in their final position. The fathers are probably
more representative of the general gifted sample and are often just along for
the
ride:-) Their type patterns are much different from the children and
mothers. To me, this is just a supporting example of how some kids get
identified
because they are not doing what their mothers or teachers expect them to do in
school while others equally gifted are more likely to just do the work whether
it "fits them" or not. This is just a brief, summary "take" on it, but still
interesting, I think.

Deborah L. Ruf, PhD
Educational Options
4500 Heathbrooke Circle
Golden Valley, MN 55422
Educational Options

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#008080" SIZE=3D2 P=
TSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Tahoma" LANG=3D"0">Dear Dr. Reis:<BR=
>
       I am so happy you are doing this confer=
ence.  I hand out your Internal Barriers article to mothers of gifted b=
oys and girls all the time.  <BR>
       I am responding to the conversation sta=
rted by Luc, in particular, about who gets identified as gifted.  I am=20=
a private consultant for gifted families and wanted to respond to what Luc s=
aid about who comes in for help.  I have interested clients take the My=
ers-Briggs or the child's equivalent - the whole family, if possible. =20=

I have found some interesting patterns among mothers (the ones who usually m=
ake the decisions about assessment and education issues) and the children th=
ey "haul" in for assessment and help.  I'd heard that other experts aro=
und the country had found a large, large majority of the children brought in=
were INFP's, although that is apparently not the most common gifted type pr=
eference.  This is what I see, too.  As it turns out, a great many=
of the mothers have a "J" in their final position.  The fathers are pr=
obably more representative of the general gifted sample and are often just a=
long for the ride:-)  Their type patterns are much different from the c=
hildren and mothers.  To me, this is just a supporting example of how s=
ome kids get identified because they are not doing what their mothers or tea=
chers expect them to do in school while others equally gifted are more likel=

y to just do the work whether it "fits them" or not.  This is just a br=
ief, summary "take" on it, but still interesting, I think.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<B><I>Deborah L. Ruf, PhD<BR>
Educational Options<BR>
4500 Heathbrooke Circle<BR>
Golden Valley, MN 55422<BR>
<A HREF=3D"www.educationaloptions.com">Educational Options</A></FONT><FONT =20=
COLOR=3D"#008080" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=
=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Tahoma" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
</B></I></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:29:04 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive
development for bright young girls?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB1C70.2192%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Andrew, what an interesting point you make. I have thought many times about
the kinds of issues that arise with really bright kids and how early they
understand nuances!!I know of many young children who can not watch the
news, see tv, etc etc. This early understanding of advanced knowledge can
cause fear, anxiety in some students and have little effect on others.
Talented girls, though, in my experience, often worry about problems in
world ( war, pollution) and I have found that this may exist in some,
because of their advanced capacity to intake and process information. I had

not read Dune's quote but it is fascinating. Thanks for your thoughts,
Sally

> From: Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 16:51:07 -0500
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive development
> for bright young girls?
>
>
>
>
>
> Sally, I'm enjoying this conference. It's wonderful to have someone with
> your expertise available for discussions! I hope this comment doesn't seem
> like it's too far out of left field. But your excellent introductory
> remarks got me thinking...
>
> One issue in which I've been interested for some time is differential rates
> of cognitive maturation between boys and girls, and how this differential
> rate plays out in individuals of different levels of intelligence. Girls in
> general develop more rapidly than boys in general cognition. In general,
> children who are high in intelligence develop more rapidly than others.

> Logically, gifted girls should develop more rapidly than anyone.
>
> Perhaps such accelerated cognitive development carries its own risks for
> the young girl.
>
> I have done some early recollections research with male and female
> scientists and mathematicians, and with a general college student
> population. Women in my samples had earlier mean age of earliest memory
> compared to men, consistent with the presumed relation between cognitive
> development (with girls advancing faster than boys) and age of earliest
> memory. In addition, earlier early recollections were associated with more
> negative affect, more evidence of terror, anxiety, blood, injury,
> loneliness, frustration, rage, etc. The brighter the adult occupational
> group (among the scientists and mathematicians; based on others' research
> of occupational differences in intelligence), the earlier the mean age of
> early recollection. Within each group of scientists and mathematicians, the

> women in the group had earlier mean age of earliest recollection than the
> men. I have found a modest negative correlation between age of earliest
> reported memory and an indicator of intelligence (it was about -.18; I
> know, not much!). The one female mathematician I had as a participant in
> the scientist/mathematician study said her earliest memory was at a very
> early age but was simply too terrifying to relate.
>
> But perhaps, as I suggested, being a very bright young girl may also carry
> its own risks due to very early accelerated cognitive development. Perhaps
> it puts very intelligent girls at risk relative to boys (brighter or
> otherwise) who mature more slowly. Such risks may not be cognitive in
> nature; they might show up in, say, personality development and
> psychopathology. They might show up with early precocious cognitive
> development that somehow becomes "derailed" in later childhood.
>

> The only theory I can propose is similar to what Frank Herbert suggested in
> his Dune novels: that children who become conscious early and have to try
> to understand the world necessarily find it a more terrifying place. They
> may develop a personality that helps them to cope with the world as if it
> were a terrifying place. Once developed, personality tends to develop means
> to protect and preserve itself, and continues to view the world in the same
> way as it always had.
>
> Of course, these are speculations and generalizations.
>
> I was wondering if you had any thoughts about this...
>
> Andrew Carson
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:34:07 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB1D9F.219B%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Not at all. I hope my numbers are accurate. I learned them from a friend
of mine who mentioned how effective your association has been!! If these are
not accurate, please feel free to correct me on list. Sally

> From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:13:51 -0700
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
> Sally M. Reis wrote:
>
>> That is true. There are over 20,000 members of the home schooling
>> association in California alone and the reasons that most folks home school
>> is either religious or academic. Of course, this option does not work for
>> everyone, Sally
>>
>>
>

> Hi, Sally -- Would you mind if I contact you offlist about this?
>
> Thanks!
> Corin Goodwin <corin @ thegoodwins.com> <-- remove spaces
> HomeSchool Association of California
> Co-chair, Legislative Committee
> Adviser, Gifted/Special Needs
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:37:03 -0700
From: Kate Little <ice_time@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BAY8-F111N6WAvMrOyR0000360f@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Hi Sally:

Thank you for your insights. Perhaps you can comment on the following:

13 years ago, when I switched from high-profile computer career to
stay-at-home-mom, I read a book titled "Sequencing" - I do not remember the
author. The premise of the book was that, yes, you can have it all, you
just can't have it all at once. It was very helpful to me as I had to
adjust from the external rewards of a career to the internal rewards of
changing diapers.

Actually, my recollection of engineering school in the early 80s was that it
was taboo to think or speak of marriage or children. It was assumed among
all of the women, and everyone else there, that careers were first and

foremost in our minds, to exclusion of everything else. No one ever
mentioned that we would eventually have to make choices and figure out how
to balance everything out. These choices came as a total shock to me when
suddenly faced with them.

Kate

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:43:54 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB1FEA.219D%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
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To Lisa, Susan, and Donna,(and anyone else thinking about these issues) the
conversations I have most often with talented women are about balance and
finding time. So many (too many) young girls believe that they can have it
all and when they learn they can not, they somehow believe that they have
failed. I have come to believe that choices must be outlined earlier and
repeated to make sure that they are understood.

indicates that many older gifted women resolve some of the personal issues
relating to ability and social issues experienced by younger gifted girls.
It is also important to understand that some of these dilemmas cannot be
resolved to the satisfaction of everyone. Rather, some dilemmas shift or are
resolved when changes in a woman's life occur, such as the maturation of her
children and, in some cases, the dissolution of a relationship, the
reemergence of other relationships, and a change in environments at work or
home. Therefore, it is difficult, if not impossible, when discussing social
and emotional issues, to discuss gifted girls without discussing gifted
women because many young gifted girls believe that they can "do it all" or
"have it all," while many older gifted females have learned that they
cannot. Many gifted girls were academically gifted in school, but as they
become older, ambivalence about their future caused their hopes and career

dreams to waver. Preventing this and learning more about why hopes fade is
the reason that much of the research about gifted girls and women continues.

What factors help some smart young girls become self-fulfilled,
talented adults who can achieve at high levels and enjoy personal happiness?
In my research, I have found that belief in ability and self-confidence of
talented females is undermined or diminished during childhood or adolescence
and then barriers are encountered that are real and relate to both work and
relationships. They are different than the barriers faced by talented men.
It is imperative that research continue to probe what can be done. I have
most enjoyed my work with older women who achieved eminence after the age of
50, as that is a time when it is much easier to learn about yourself and put
yourself first. The reason that I am able to do this conference today is
that my 15 year old is on a class trip. I have fit my work into a pattern

that enables me to also have time to be a good mother. But, I look forward
to having time to do my own work, without being guilty. The struggle
continues and your stories all touched me. Sally

> From: "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:06:14 -0500
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Finding balance
>
> Sally -
> Thank you for doing this conference.
>
> As with many here, I am learning so much about myself as I learn about how
> giftedness affects my children. I graduated highschool in 1978 (not at the
> top of the class), just before class equality for the sexes was established
> in JR and HS. I dreamed of becoming an architect, though I was not allowed
> to take drafting in JR - rather I was required to take an extra year of home
> economics (which I hated). Unfortunately, I was too shy at the time to make
> an issue about this discrimination.
>
> By highschool, I was sure than I did not want to follow in my mother's

> footsteps. She was a SAHM who loved me very much but was never very happy.
> I wanted desperately to grow up, leave home, and my small midwest hometown.
> I saw education as the way to obtain freedom to decide what I wanted to do,
> where I wanted to live, and enough money to do those things. So I selected
> for my senior schedule, Chemistry, Calculus, a college level
> Chemistry/Physics, World Literature, individual drafting, and required
> Economics. My hs counselor looked at this and remarked, "Why do you want to
> take all this?" So much for encouragement! It was a tough academic year -
> but I made it - no scholarships though since my grades averaged B+. This
> also made me sure I was not gifted since I had to work hard for grades that
> did not shine.
>
> In my third semester of college, I found that architecture required a 6 year
> degree and job opportunities were rare. I couldn't financially afford 6

> years of school, plus I was increasingly disillusioned with the architecture
> college, so I switched over to engineering. The engineering counselor asked
> me which engineering discipline I wanted to major in. When I said I wasn't
> sure, he suggested Civil Engineering because there were more girls there.
> <sigh> I selected Mechanical Engineering as the most general.
>
> I eventually launched into my engineering career. I defined myself entirely
> by my career. I shuddered when my parents told others that I had married as
> the first identifying factor about my life. As far as I was concerned,
> finding someone to marry was pure luck, obtaining an engineering degree and
> career was pure hard work!
>
> After working 9 years and having my career firmly established, we decided to
> have children - and that's when the balancing act started. It has been
> tough. Our 11 yo PG son needed more than a part-time parent from day 1.

> For the first 4 years, I tried working full-time, but then a second son
> arrived, and I just couldn't figure a way to divide myself in enough pieces.
> The last year I worked full-time, I was on the road 60% of the time - which
> to some degree had been terribly fun. I had meetings at the hotel in
> Manhattan where Jerry Lewis was doing Damn Yankees, ate lunch at a meeting
> break in DC overlooking the White House, and spent a week at a conference in
> New Orleans on Bourbon street. I really don't know how working parents do
> it. I simply could not do it all. 5 weeks on pregnancy bedrest helped me
> have enough time to realize that something had to give.
>
> So now my job is part-time as an engineering contractor to the same company
> (though I've lost my years of service and all benefits), and I homeschool
> our oldest. It's been very hard for me to switch my self-image from
> engineer to homeschool mom. I haven't been terribly involved in the Society

> of Women Engineers because I can't honestly suggest to other young women
> that they can do it all. At least in my experience, something had to give.
> I still do hang onto my career because I need that mental stimulation, but I
> don't have the stance that I once had. Meanwhile, my husband's engineering
> career has taken off. I had learned to use my racing brain to multi-task at
> work very well. Unfortunately, this self-driven aspect of my personality
> does not transfer well to full-time childcare. I do find, though, that my
> creative skills that aimed me toward architecture do not get nurtured enough
> currently. Maybe in my next life.
>
> I wish I knew how to teach my children to have just the right amount of
> self-drive - finding that balance between career and family. I developed my
> drive almost to spite my parents and situation - each time someone implied,
> 'you can't do this' - I had to show them I could!
>
> Lisa C.
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:44:21 -0500
From: Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive
development for bright young girls?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <OF0C273E6A.F3AC29E6-ON86256E7C.007C3925-86256E7C.007CECA5@hmco.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Thanks, Sally. My main publication off the early recollections research
was:

Carson, A. D. (1994). Early recollections among scientists: Loss
of faith in God and Santa Claus. Individual Psychology, 50,
149-160.

There was one quotation in the article from the earliest memory of an

exceptionally bright female psychologist, who recalled having her daiper
changed by someone who was doing it incorrectly; the young girl (reportedly
at about age 1) was screaming, angry, frustrated. The earliest memories of
the male psychologists were generally happy and social four year old
memories of a world full of confidence and extraverted play.

The novel was Frank Herbert's Dune, but the idea of the negative effects of
becoming fully conscious at too early an age are explored more in the
sequel, Children of Dune.

Drew

Andrew D. Carson, Ph.D.
Senior Project Director
The Riverside Publishing Company
425 Spring Lake Drive
Itasca, Illinois 60143-2079
phone (630) 467-6036 or 1-800-767-8420 (extension 6036)
fax (630) 467-6150
email Andrew_Carson@hmco.com

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:45:37 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <008701c42729$3537faa0$3c90b041@DGNNTN11>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Dr. Reis,

I was wondering where the article you attached for Ranae was (or will be)
published and whether it would be possible to get permission to reprint an
exerpt of it in the newsletter of the Michigan Alliance for Gifted Education
this summer? Our conference this year focuses on "non-traditional gifted
students" and I would like to follow up with more information on these kids
in the next issue.

Thanks,

Susan Grammer
*************************************************
Susan F. Grammer
Biotechwrite: Biomedical and Science Communications, Education and Research
Kalamazoo, Michigan
email: grammers@ix.netcom.com

website: http://home.netcom.com/~grammers/biotechwrite/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: Good afternoon

> Oh, these kinds of dilemmas make me sad!! First, celebrate her talents and
> her many gifts and be proud of her--unequivocal love is the best medicine
> for any child. Second, we need to try to fix the school before we fix
her.
> I am attaching an article that I wrote about underachievement based on my
> experiences with my step son Mark. He is the reason I have done so much
> research on this area. I believe that the school curricula should be
fixed
> before she is and I think that for some gifted kids, underachievement is
> dropping out with dignity. I hope this helps you. I would support her
> choices and help her to understand the consequences of her decisions. If
> she is doing extremely well in some areas and less well in others, she
will

> still have choices for college, especially with high scores and awards. In
> other words, support her and help her to understand her choices while
trying
> to change the school culture for bright kids. Good luck, Sally
> --
> Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
> Professor and Department Head
> Department of Educational Psychology
> University of Connecticut
> 2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
> Storrs, CT 06269-3007
> Ph: 860-486-0618
> Fax: 860-486-2900
> sally.reis@uconn.edu
>
> Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information
about
> our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three Summers
> Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection,
Parenting
> Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research Center
> on the Gifted and Talented.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:24:00 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu

> > Subject: Re: Good afternoon
> >
> >
> > --- "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu> wrote:
> >> Why do some gifted and talented women achieve and gain prominence or
> >> eminence while others who had as much or more potential fail to achieve
the
> >> dreams they had as girls?
> >
> > Hello Mrs. Reis,
> > Let me add my Thanks for your time and willingness to do this
conference. I
> > was looking forward to your information because of our two wonderful
> > daughters.
> >
> >
> > Our 11yr old is in a full time GT program and doing quite well at the
moment,
> > it is the other daughter that our concern is about, currently. Our 14
year
> > old
> > is extremely gifted with writing skills, but her lack of organization
skills
> > is
> > what conserns us at the moment. She will be awarded first place for our
state
> > in a national writting contest she entered this saturday, but we fear
she will
> > have a hard time getting into anything but a community college because
of her

> > grades if her trend toward underachievement continues. She wants to be
a
> > author of fantasy novels/childrens literature etc. Her poetry is so
deep and
> > thought provoking, she is really amazing. She attends a full time
middle
> > school gifted and talented program, and Aces the tests, and core things
that
> > make up the subject of the curriculum, but has a difficult time doing
all of
> > the excuse me-busy work the teachers require of the kids. I understand
and
> > agree the busy work is sometimes rediculas, but it is this 'busy work'
that is
> > dragging her grades in the gutter. I wish that along with the
transcripts we
> > could forward info on what the grades were generated from.
> >
> > I guess my question is this, how do we support her thrilling ability to
create
> > while still having to 'conform' to the schools grading system, so she
will be
> > able to keep her dreams and ability alive and be able to achieve her
goals?
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Ranae
> >
> >

> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25?
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
> >
> >
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:49:14 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Putting the needs of others first
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB212A.21A5%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

An excellent question, Susan. She sounds like a wonderful, generous girl who
loves her older brother. I don't know her and am always careful about
responding to questions about kids I do not know, so let me tell you what I
tried to do with both of our girls. I tried to raise them to be kind, but
to put their own work and interests ahead of the interests of others. That
is, to understand, that while they are young,in school, and not wives and
mothers, that they had to put themselves first--. 4 is a little young to
understand, so balance is key. I might say something like, "what a kind
generous thing to do, but if you want that egg, it is yours and you should

eat it." In other words, praise the action, but let her know that she is in
charge of her decisions and choices. I speak about this rather extensively
in my book, and when I give keynotes on this, this point is always
controversial. It does, however, come from many years of research and work.
Sally

> From: Susan <les@pandora.be>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:28:10 +0200
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Putting the needs of others first
>
> Quote from Sally: "Not all gifted females experience the same issues, but
> trends have been found in research about talented women that identify a
> combination of the following contributing reasons: dilemmas about abilities
> and talents, personal decisions about family, ambivalence of parents and
> teachers toward developing high levels of potential, decisions about duty
> and caring (putting the needs of others first) as opposed to pursuing one¹s

> own talents and a host of other personal, religious, and social issues."
>
> - My daughter of 4 is already distinctly showing 'putting the needs of
> others first' behavior. F.e.: her older brother (turns 7 this summer) is
> quite good in raising his voice when he doesn't get what he thinks should
> come to him; my daughter often responds to his behavior by giving him what
> he asks for, even if that means she'll have to set her own wishes or needs
> aside. She'll give him her last Easter egg, although I gave them both the
> same amount to go with, she'll hand him the toy she's picked out to play
> with first, etc. I see this kind of behavior from her every day, also
> towards the other family members. When she 'senses' she can make us happy by
> taking some kind of action or by pleasing us with 'good behavior' (the kind
> of behavior she guesses we will appreciate most at that time), she's very
> eager to comply, even if that means she has to set herself aside and/or has

> to control her emotions.
>
> For me, as her mother, it's sometimes heartbreaking to watch her act like
> this, 'cause I can imagine how difficult it must be for a little girl her
> age to set herself aside. At times, I would rather see her not giving in and
> enjoy what's hers, or letting her emotions go, but I hesitate to intervene,
> because on the other end, I think it's very special that she is able to give
> up her own needs for someone she loves. And when I do intervene between her
> and her brother, or refuse what she wants to give me because I'd like her to
> enjoy it herself, I often see the disappointment in her eyes, because I
> won't let her do things the way she wants to.
> I find it very difficult to respond to this trait of hers - wondering if it
> really is a trait she has in her and which she has already developed to this
> point (which is quite remarkable for her age, in my opinion) - and I'm not
> quite sure which response is best: should I let her take the action she

> feels like and has already chosen (putting the needs of others first, that
> is), or should I encourage her to become a bit more 'selfish' and let her
> brother shout, or keep her last cookie for herself instead of giving it to
> me?
>
> Susan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:49:29 +0200
From: Anja Jacobs <anjajacobs@macunlimited.net>
Subject: gifted preschooler with low self-esteem
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <FB758A46-931C-11D8-A884-000393CCA44C@macunlimited.net>
MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613)
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-17--1032529244

--Apple-Mail-17--1032529244
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charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed

Hello Dr. Reis,
Thanks for doing this! I have specific issues with my (supposedly)
gifted daughter that I'd appreciate your thoughts about.

I live in Belgium and I am the mother of 2 gifted children (aged 6,5
and 5). I am coparenting with my ex. I work full time.
My daughter, who will be become 5 years of age this week, is soon to be
tested for giftedness since there are strong indications.
She is still in preschool and has started reading by self-instruction.

She strongly desires to skip the last year of preschool and start
elementary school next september. She is also beyond her age and
preschool level on calculus.

But apart from reading she shows very little interest in other domains.
The only topic she's been researching (since she was a
toddler even) was babycare, reproduction and fertility issues. She has
recently demonstrated a desire to learn play the violin and we'll
probably start with that soon. I am constantly keeping my eyes open for
other areas of interest she may hint at, but I cannot find anything.
She does participate in activities I undertake for her brother but even
at those she absorbs without further questions (in general, recently we
had one exeption). Yet she does remember what she picks up this way, as
she often demonstrates afterwards.

She also is a neurotic perfectionist.
She has pretty low self esteem (had it even as a toddler) and has a
rather negative image of how she'll be as a grown-up. Lately she

said that she thinks she'll become a 'fat woman' as a grown-up. She
said it bothered her since she wanted to stay slim but she didn't
think it would be the case (yet most people in my family are slim to
skinny, including myself, without any pain).
She is very aware of how other people perceive her and does not feel
comfortable in social situations.

When I ask her about her outlook for the future ("what will you be when
you grow up?") she responses that it doesn't matter: she'll get
married, have children, and stay home to nurture them (as I should do,
in her opinion).

I do worry a lot about her because of this. Could it be she has already
developped internal barriers at this young age? May she be an
overachiever (because of her older brother who has turned out to be
highly gifted) and in fact not be gifted at all? Lately I even
wondered if she is comparing herself to me and feels that she falls
short (as I myself come across as very self-confident, a high achiever,

dynamic and a risk-taker, while she is shy, more passive, and
conservative). It is a fact that when she talks about me to others she
shows a lot of admiration, beyond the 'normal' admiration that
preschoolers have for their parents. Yet, what she does not realise,
is that I was very much like her as a young girl.

Thanks,

Anja
Lars-Kristian (30 10 97) en Siglinde (22 4 99)
--Apple-Mail-17--1032529244
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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charset=US-ASCII

<fontfamily><param>Courier</param>Hello Dr. Reis,

Thanks for doing this! I have specific issues with my (supposedly)
gifted daughter that I'd appreciate your thoughts about.

I live in Belgium and I am the mother of 2 gifted children (aged 6,5
and 5). I am coparenting with my ex. I work full time.

My daughter, who will be become 5 years of age this week, is soon to
be tested for giftedness since there are strong indications.

She is still in preschool and has started reading by self-instruction.
She strongly desires to skip the last year of preschool and start
elementary school next september. She is also beyond her age and
preschool level on calculus.

But apart from reading she shows very little interest in other
domains. The only topic she's been researching (since she was a

toddler even) was babycare, reproduction and fertility issues. She has
recently demonstrated a desire to learn play the violin and we'll
probably start with that soon. I am constantly keeping my eyes open
for other areas of interest she may hint at, but I cannot find
anything. She does participate in activities I undertake for her
brother but even at those she absorbs without further questions (in
general, recently we had one exeption). Yet she does remember what she
picks up this way, as she often demonstrates afterwards.

She also is a neurotic perfectionist.

She has pretty low self esteem (had it even as a toddler) and has a

rather negative image of how she'll be as a grown-up. Lately she

said that she thinks she'll become a 'fat woman' as a grown-up. She
said it bothered her since she wanted to stay slim but she didn't

think it would be the case (yet most people in my family are slim to
skinny, including myself, without any pain).

She is very aware of how other people perceive her and does not feel
comfortable in social situations.

When I ask her about her outlook for the future ("what will you be
when you grow up?") she responses that it doesn't matter: she'll get

married, have children, and stay home to nurture them (as I should do,
in her opinion).

I do worry a lot about her because of this. Could it be she has
already developped internal barriers at this young age? May she be an
overachiever (because of her older brother who has turned out to be
highly gifted) and in fact not be gifted at all? Lately I even
wondered if she is comparing herself to me and feels that she falls

short (as I myself come across as very self-confident, a high
achiever, dynamic and a risk-taker, while she is shy, more passive,
and conservative). It is a fact that when she talks about me to
others she shows a lot of admiration, beyond the 'normal' admiration
that preschoolers have for their parents. Yet, what she does not
realise, is that I was very much like her as a young girl.

Thanks,

</fontfamily>

Anja

Lars-Kristian (30 10 97) en Siglinde (22 4 99)
--Apple-Mail-17--1032529244--

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:00:11 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB23BB.21A7%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Kate, I am not sure who said that, but it is a very apt quote. I also
applaud your honesty with your own experiences! I love the windmill
metaphor I describe below.

In one interview conducted almost 15 years ago, a gifted teenage girl named
Maria became angry with me as I asked her questions about perceived barriers
she might confront in her future. Maria told me she faced no barriers, that
the women's movement had paved the road and that she could certainly have it
all. I remember her youthful enthusiasm as she explained to me that her
dreams were not dreams at all, but rather a road map for her future. Her map
included an education at a first-rate women's college, a graduate degree, a

university position teaching to support her while she wrote the great
American novel, and a husband and children. Last year, almost 20 years
later, I interviewed Maria again. She had finished her undergraduate degree
and fallen in love during college. She had not gone to graduate school, but
had financially and emotionally supported her husband, whom she loved
deeply, in his pursuit of his career. She spoke about his talents in glowing
terms and showed me photographs of their young child who was the joy of her
life. When I asked her about her plans for graduate school and for her
writing, she paused and said, "Oh today, I am much more realistic about my
goals. I try to get through the week and take care of my family. I also am
devoted to my husband's dreams." As I paused to think of a way to tactfully
ask another question, she spoke quietly, "You know, I bought the whole
superwoman thing, but it's just not right to put my own needs ahead of the

needs of my child and my husband. He has such dreams about his work."
Instead, she deferred her own dreams, and only time, perhaps decades, will
tell if they will reappear again or simply change.

Young girls often believe they can do anything and everything. For them, a
direct battle would be easier to fight than the subtle messages laden with
guilt that they encounter later. Some young women today are in a more
difficult position because they aren't able to take the hard-line stance
against discrimination that their mothers' generation did twenty years ago.
In previous decades, women could find some satisfaction in being strong, in
being a rebel of sorts, and they could appreciate gains when that behavior
was recognized. These days the obvious foes to women's rights may be gone
because of the success of the Women's Movement, but the reality of
confronting more subtle obstacles and barriers still remains. Women today

are supposed to have won the battle for equality, and to have no more glass
ceilings to break through. Unfortunately, women keep encountering them
anyway. It's as if there aren't any real windmills to conquer because in
many cases the windmills are far too hazy, and we really can't see them
until we run into them, as did Maria. Ambivalence about feminine ambition
is also an issue. Many women encounter negative stereotyping and feedback
from parents, peers, and other women, in addition to the population at
large, about being ambitious and pursuing their goals and begin to feel that
being ambitious is synonymous with being selfish.

> From: Kate Little <ice_time@hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:37:03 -0700
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
>
> Hi Sally:
>
> Thank you for your insights. Perhaps you can comment on the following:
>
> 13 years ago, when I switched from high-profile computer career to

> stay-at-home-mom, I read a book titled "Sequencing" - I do not remember the
> author. The premise of the book was that, yes, you can have it all, you
> just can't have it all at once. It was very helpful to me as I had to
> adjust from the external rewards of a career to the internal rewards of
> changing diapers.
>
> Actually, my recollection of engineering school in the early 80s was that it
> was taboo to think or speak of marriage or children. It was assumed among
> all of the women, and everyone else there, that careers were first and
> foremost in our minds, to exclusion of everything else. No one ever
> mentioned that we would eventually have to make choices and figure out how
> to balance everything out. These choices came as a total shock to me when
> suddenly faced with them.
>
> Kate
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:56:59 -0400
From: Shannon <shannon@childbrain.org>
Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <00d801c4272a$cd4cf920$0400a8c0@toshiba>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hello All,

I have one of these wonderful babies. She is exremely aware and alert. She
is just today 13 months old. Before she was 12 months she had already
spoken over 120 words, knew basic numerals in English, French and Spanish
and she is starting to read. She likes to do things on her own, like
feeding herself.

To the point, she is already showing signs of frustration. So, the question
is how to help her not to have this frustration at such a young age?

Thanks,
Shannon

----- Original Message -----
From: <Andrew_Carson@hmco.com>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:44 PM

Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?

>
>
>
>
> Thanks, Sally. My main publication off the early recollections research
> was:
>
>
> Carson, A. D. (1994). Early recollections among scientists: Loss
> of faith in God and Santa Claus. Individual Psychology, 50,
> 149-160.
>
>
>
>
>
> There was one quotation in the article from the earliest memory of an
> exceptionally bright female psychologist, who recalled having her daiper
> changed by someone who was doing it incorrectly; the young girl
(reportedly
> at about age 1) was screaming, angry, frustrated. The earliest memories of
> the male psychologists were generally happy and social four year old
> memories of a world full of confidence and extraverted play.
>
> The novel was Frank Herbert's Dune, but the idea of the negative effects
of
> becoming fully conscious at too early an age are explored more in the
> sequel, Children of Dune.
>
> Drew
>

> Andrew D. Carson, Ph.D.
> Senior Project Director
> The Riverside Publishing Company
> 425 Spring Lake Drive
> Itasca, Illinois 60143-2079
> phone (630) 467-6036 or 1-800-767-8420 (extension 6036)
> fax (630) 467-6150
> email Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:06:18 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB252A.21AF%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Susan, that article was published in the California Communicator. Here is
the reference:

Reis, S. M. (1998). Underachievement for some‹dropping out with dignity for
others. Communicator: The Journal of the California Association for the
Gifted, 29(1), 19-24.

And another more comprehensive one was published in GCQ:
Reis, S. M., & McCoach, D. B. (2000). The underachievement of gifted
students: what do we know and where do we go? Gifted Child Quarterly,
44(3), 152-170.

I am happy to have you have it reprinted as long as they give permission as
I signed copyrights to them, Sally Thanks for your interest.

> From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>

> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:45:37 -0400
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
>
> Dr. Reis,
>
> I was wondering where the article you attached for Ranae was (or will be)
> published and whether it would be possible to get permission to reprint an
> exerpt of it in the newsletter of the Michigan Alliance for Gifted Education
> this summer? Our conference this year focuses on "non-traditional gifted
> students" and I would like to follow up with more information on these kids
> in the next issue.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Susan Grammer
> *************************************************
> Susan F. Grammer
> Biotechwrite: Biomedical and Science Communications, Education and Research
> Kalamazoo, Michigan
> email: grammers@ix.netcom.com
> website: http://home.netcom.com/~grammers/biotechwrite/
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>

> To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 4:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>
>
>> Oh, these kinds of dilemmas make me sad!! First, celebrate her talents and
>> her many gifts and be proud of her--unequivocal love is the best medicine
>> for any child. Second, we need to try to fix the school before we fix
> her.
>> I am attaching an article that I wrote about underachievement based on my
>> experiences with my step son Mark. He is the reason I have done so much
>> research on this area. I believe that the school curricula should be
> fixed
>> before she is and I think that for some gifted kids, underachievement is
>> dropping out with dignity. I hope this helps you. I would support her
>> choices and help her to understand the consequences of her decisions. If
>> she is doing extremely well in some areas and less well in others, she
> will
>> still have choices for college, especially with high scores and awards. In

>> other words, support her and help her to understand her choices while
> trying
>> to change the school culture for bright kids. Good luck, Sally
>> --
>> Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
>> Professor and Department Head
>> Department of Educational Psychology
>> University of Connecticut
>> 2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
>> Storrs, CT 06269-3007
>> Ph: 860-486-0618
>> Fax: 860-486-2900
>> sally.reis@uconn.edu
>>
>> Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information
> about
>> our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three Summers
>> Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection,
> Parenting
>> Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research Center
>> on the Gifted and Talented.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
>>> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>>> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:24:00 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>>> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>>>
>>>

>>> --- "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu> wrote:
>>>> Why do some gifted and talented women achieve and gain prominence or
>>>> eminence while others who had as much or more potential fail to achieve
> the
>>>> dreams they had as girls?
>>>
>>> Hello Mrs. Reis,
>>> Let me add my Thanks for your time and willingness to do this
> conference. I
>>> was looking forward to your information because of our two wonderful
>>> daughters.
>>>
>>>
>>> Our 11yr old is in a full time GT program and doing quite well at the
> moment,
>>> it is the other daughter that our concern is about, currently. Our 14
> year
>>> old
>>> is extremely gifted with writing skills, but her lack of organization
> skills
>>> is
>>> what conserns us at the moment. She will be awarded first place for our
> state
>>> in a national writting contest she entered this saturday, but we fear
> she will
>>> have a hard time getting into anything but a community college because
> of her

>>> grades if her trend toward underachievement continues. She wants to be
> a
>>> author of fantasy novels/childrens literature etc. Her poetry is so
> deep and
>>> thought provoking, she is really amazing. She attends a full time
> middle
>>> school gifted and talented program, and Aces the tests, and core things
> that
>>> make up the subject of the curriculum, but has a difficult time doing
> all of
>>> the excuse me-busy work the teachers require of the kids. I understand
> and
>>> agree the busy work is sometimes rediculas, but it is this 'busy work'
> that is
>>> dragging her grades in the gutter. I wish that along with the
> transcripts we
>>> could forward info on what the grades were generated from.
>>>
>>> I guess my question is this, how do we support her thrilling ability to
> create
>>> while still having to 'conform' to the schools grading system, so she
> will be
>>> able to keep her dreams and ability alive and be able to achieve her
> goals?
>>>

>>> Thank You,
>>> Ranae
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________
>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25?
>>> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:07:43 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Fw: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <00ac01c4272c$4ce496b0$3c90b041@DGNNTN11>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C4270A.C26F0B30"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C4270A.C26F0B30
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

woops, this didn't go out the first time.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Grammer" <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls

> >that some parents concentrate too much on manners in
> > their talented daughters. I want us to raise gifted girls who speak out,
> > challenge authority, and ask too many questions!! Maybe the world would
be
> a

> > different place if that happened.
>
> Funny you should say this as my daughter and I were talking about that
> yesterday............I told her after kindergarten that it was OK to show
> who she was in school even if it meant that she didn't always have a
> "perfect" discipline record.
>
> The next fall her first grade teacher could "see" she was gifted
immediately
> but her kindergarten teacher had had reservations.....But starting the
first
> week of first grade she kept getting marked down (just a little) for not
> following directions on worksheets...........she won't mind if I share a
> copy of this assignment with you all cause I've shown the slide to
hundreds
> of people already and she now tells the story herself. I'll see if I can
> attach it to this. If not I"ll write it later.........
>
> Remember, she has a twin brother. This was their first reading assignment
in
> first grade and I guess they were supposed to copy the sentence that was
the

> correct answer........I guess six year olds aren't supposed to make
> inferences, answer based on experience or use humor in their writing!
>
> Susan Grammer
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
> To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 5:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
>
>
> > I so agree. I often tell parents of girls (with apologies to those of
you
> > who have read my book) that some parents concentrate too much on manners
> in
> > their talented daughters. I want us to raise gifted girls who speak out,
> > challenge authority, and ask too many questions!! Maybe the world would
be
> a
> > different place if that happened. Thanks for raising that point, Sally
> > I will sign back on in 20 minutes. Going to grab a drink. me
> > --
> > Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
> > Professor and Department Head
> > Department of Educational Psychology
> > University of Connecticut

> > 2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
> > Storrs, CT 06269-3007
> > Ph: 860-486-0618
> > Fax: 860-486-2900
> > sally.reis@uconn.edu
> >
> > Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information
> about
> > our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three
Summers
> > Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection,
> Parenting
> > Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research
Center
> > on the Gifted and Talented.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: Sally_L@comcast.net
> > > Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:11:17 +0000
> > > To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > > Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
> > >
> > > Hi Susan,
> > > You wrote:
> > > With girls, it is often the parents who identify underachievement and
> seek to
> > > find the cause. Meanwhile, the schools are telling the parents that
> their
> > > daughters are lovely children, well-behaved etc

> > >
> > > "well-behaved" caught my attention. I visited Moab, Utah last week and
> in a
> > > store filled with clothing and equipment for outdoor adventures -
white
> water
> > > river rafting, hummer safaris, mountain biking, etc there was a
T-shirt
> with
> > > the following saying:
> > >
> > > No well-behaved woman will ever make history
> > >
> > > I know you were focusing on learning disabilities in gifted girls, but
> > > acceptable behavior i.e. well-behaved for the female gender is
> definitely an
> > > aspect which is a barrier IMHO.
> > >
> > > Sally_L
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:20:43 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: gifted preschooler with low self-esteem
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB288B.21B1%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Thanks for your question. I hope that my response is helpful, and this one
may be controversial, as well. First, I don't believe that giftedness is
something that can be tested for like one has a certain blood type.
Giftedness is more than just IQ or aptitude. It is certainly developmental.
In other words, if the person doing the assessment tells you that you do or
do not have a gifted child, I would carefully consider what I was hearing.
I believe that we help to develop talents in children and that it takes a
certain level of aptitude, as well as resources, opportunities, and
encouragement. We have outlined these opportunities in the Enrichment

approach I have developed with Joseph Renzulli, called the Schoolwide
Enrichment Model (SEM).

In the SEM, a talent pool of 15-20% of above average ability/high potential
students is identified through a variety of measures including: achievement
tests, teacher nominations, assessment of potential for creativity and task
commitment, as well as alternative pathways of entrance (self-nomination,
parent nomination, etc.). High achievement test and IQ test scores
automatically include a student in the talent pool, enabling those students
who are underachieving in their academic school work to be included.
Once students are identified for the talent pool, they are eligible for
several kinds of services. First, interest and learning styles assessments
are used with talent pool students. Informal and formal methods are used to
create or identify students' interests and to encourage students to further
develop and pursue these interests in various ways. Learning style

preferences which are assessed include: projects, independent study,
teaching games, simulations, peer teaching, programmed instruction, lecture,
drill and recitation, and discussion. Second, curriculum compacting is
provided to all eligible students for whom the regular curriculum is
modified by eliminating portions of previously mastered content. This
elimination or streamlining of curriculum enables above average students to
avoid repetition of previously mastered work and guarantees mastery while
simultaneously finding time for more appropriately challenging activities.
A form, entitled the Compactor is used to document which content areas have
been compacted and what alternative work has been substituted.

Third, enrichment (using the Enrichment Triad Model), offers three types of
enrichment experiences. Type I, II, and III Enrichment are offered to all
students; however, Type III enrichment is usually more appropriate for

students with higher levels of ability, interest, and task commitment. Also,
acceleration is offered, too.

In this way, we try to provide options to develop the talents of our high
potential students. This is the way I like to consider gifted education
options. We also provide a continuum of services!! That is The Schoolwide
Enrichment Model is an organizational plan for delivering enrichment and
acceleration through an integrated continuum of services (see the Figure on
our web site below--check out the SEM folder). The word "integrated" is
emphasized because maximum payoff is achieved when a service provided
through one component of the model enables students who show superior
performance or advanced interest to escalate their experience through
options that might be available through other service delivery components.
Services provided by the model range from general enrichment for both
wide-ranging and targeted subgroups to highly individualized curriculum

modification procedures for rapid learners and first-hand investigative
opportunities for highly motivated individuals and small groups. The model
also includes a broad array of specific grouping arrangements based on
commonalities in abilities, interests, learning styles, and preferences for
various modes of expression.

What I always try to tell parents is to try to expose your children to as
many outstanding enrichment opportunities as possible and to also try to
find their interests,talents and areas of fascination. The other thing I
repeatedly say is to develop their self-regulation!! Sally

> From: Anja Jacobs <anjajacobs@macunlimited.net>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:49:29 +0200
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: gifted preschooler with low self-esteem
>
> Hello Dr. Reis,
> Thanks for doing this! I have specific issues with my (supposedly)
> gifted daughter that I'd appreciate your thoughts about.
>

> I live in Belgium and I am the mother of 2 gifted children (aged 6,5
> and 5). I am coparenting with my ex. I work full time.
> My daughter, who will be become 5 years of age this week, is soon to be
> tested for giftedness since there are strong indications.
> She is still in preschool and has started reading by self-instruction.
> She strongly desires to skip the last year of preschool and start
> elementary school next september. She is also beyond her age and
> preschool level on calculus.
>
> But apart from reading she shows very little interest in other domains.
> The only topic she's been researching (since she was a
> toddler even) was babycare, reproduction and fertility issues. She has
> recently demonstrated a desire to learn play the violin and we'll
> probably start with that soon. I am constantly keeping my eyes open for
> other areas of interest she may hint at, but I cannot find anything.
> She does participate in activities I undertake for her brother but even

> at those she absorbs without further questions (in general, recently we
> had one exeption). Yet she does remember what she picks up this way, as
> she often demonstrates afterwards.
>
> She also is a neurotic perfectionist.
> She has pretty low self esteem (had it even as a toddler) and has a
> rather negative image of how she'll be as a grown-up. Lately she
> said that she thinks she'll become a 'fat woman' as a grown-up. She
> said it bothered her since she wanted to stay slim but she didn't
> think it would be the case (yet most people in my family are slim to
> skinny, including myself, without any pain).
> She is very aware of how other people perceive her and does not feel
> comfortable in social situations.
>
> When I ask her about her outlook for the future ("what will you be when
> you grow up?") she responses that it doesn't matter: she'll get
> married, have children, and stay home to nurture them (as I should do,
> in her opinion).
>

> I do worry a lot about her because of this. Could it be she has already
> developped internal barriers at this young age? May she be an
> overachiever (because of her older brother who has turned out to be
> highly gifted) and in fact not be gifted at all? Lately I even
> wondered if she is comparing herself to me and feels that she falls
> short (as I myself come across as very self-confident, a high achiever,
> dynamic and a risk-taker, while she is shy, more passive, and
> conservative). It is a fact that when she talks about me to others she
> shows a lot of admiration, beyond the 'normal' admiration that
> preschoolers have for their parents. Yet, what she does not realise,
> is that I was very much like her as a young girl.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anja
> Lars-Kristian (30 10 97) en Siglinde (22 4 99)

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:26:33 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB29E9.21B7%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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That is a delightful problem to have and one that I hear often from parents
of advanced young kids. Here is the issue: she may very well be frustrated
as she is thinking but can't adequately communicate her thoughts. She is
aware, but can not show her awareness. As she gets older, she may become
frustrated because she can think so much more quickly than speak or write.
You should try to help her by showing you love her and that it will be
alright. I strongly believe it is the responsibility of good parents to be
patient and demonstrate that patience. Help to engage her active mind as

much as you can: walks, reading, talks, trips, etc etc and enrich each day
with new words, ideas, art, and enjoyment of life and learning. Also,
remember, that learning to deal with frustration is a long process and you
have time to teach her over the next decade and a half--and perhaps even
beyond that if you need to!! Sally

> From: Shannon <shannon@childbrain.org>
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:56:59 -0400
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
> cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
>
> Hello All,
>
> I have one of these wonderful babies. She is exremely aware and alert. She
> is just today 13 months old. Before she was 12 months she had already
> spoken over 120 words, knew basic numerals in English, French and Spanish
> and she is starting to read. She likes to do things on her own, like
> feeding herself.
>
> To the point, she is already showing signs of frustration. So, the question

> is how to help her not to have this frustration at such a young age?
>
> Thanks,
> Shannon
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Andrew_Carson@hmco.com>
> To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
> cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Sally. My main publication off the early recollections research
>> was:
>>
>>
>> Carson, A. D. (1994). Early recollections among scientists: Loss
>> of faith in God and Santa Claus. Individual Psychology, 50,
>> 149-160.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There was one quotation in the article from the earliest memory of an
>> exceptionally bright female psychologist, who recalled having her daiper
>> changed by someone who was doing it incorrectly; the young girl
> (reportedly
>> at about age 1) was screaming, angry, frustrated. The earliest memories of

>> the male psychologists were generally happy and social four year old
>> memories of a world full of confidence and extraverted play.
>>
>> The novel was Frank Herbert's Dune, but the idea of the negative effects
> of
>> becoming fully conscious at too early an age are explored more in the
>> sequel, Children of Dune.
>>
>> Drew
>>
>> Andrew D. Carson, Ph.D.
>> Senior Project Director
>> The Riverside Publishing Company
>> 425 Spring Lake Drive
>> Itasca, Illinois 60143-2079
>> phone (630) 467-6036 or 1-800-767-8420 (extension 6036)
>> fax (630) 467-6150
>> email Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
>>
>
>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 01:32:24 +0200
From: Susan <les@pandora.be>
Subject: Re: Putting the needs of others first
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <000701c4272f$bc7d2200$8d7ba8c0@tracy>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Sally,

Thank you for your comments on this, it really gives me insight on the
pattern between my daugther's behavior and the way I tend to react to it .
It does sound right to me to respond to my daughter's behavior on this issue
the way you suggest; giving her the message that she's in charge and that
she should be able to feel good about putting her needs first, does sound
crucial to me. I only hope this stategy of response will not shift the
problem to her brother in the near future ; ) .

Thanks again,
Susan

>An excellent question, Susan. She sounds like a wonderful, generous girl
who
loves her older brother. I don't know her and am always careful about

responding to questions about kids I do not know, so let me tell you what I
tried to do with both of our girls. I tried to raise them to be kind, but
to put their own work and interests ahead of the interests of others. That
is, to understand, that while they are young,in school, and not wives and
mothers, that they had to put themselves first--. 4 is a little young to
understand, so balance is key. I might say something like, "what a kind
generous thing to do, but if you want that egg, it is yours and you should
eat it." In other words, praise the action, but let her know that she is in
charge of her decisions and choices. I speak about this rather extensively
in my book, and when I give keynotes on this, this point is always
controversial. It does, however, come from many years of research and work.
Sally

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:57:17 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Future action
To: Ourgifted-l@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042020042357.22862.4085B8DD000D5F8B0000594E2200761438FF91908693D18693939E@comca
st.net>

Dr. Reis,

In your book - Work Left Undone on page 312 there is a comment about teachers
needing training to establish equity in classroom interactions. What is this
training? Only awareness of the problem or is there an actual training course
available to teachers?

Sally_L

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040421000130.26095.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

--- Donna LaLangloishite <dodonna43@cox.net> wrote:
> I haven't read this thread but I will make a few comments. I graduated high
> school in 1975 when we were told that we (women) could do anything. We could
> do it all. No one was there however to show us how to do that. Just like

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisa C." <ljljchoquetteox.net>
> I haven't been terribly involved in the Society
> > of Women Engineers because I can't honestly suggest to other young women
> > that they can do it all.
> >

Hello again,

I just can't sit by and not say anything about the idea so many people in this
world have about how unimportant the role of a Woman/Mother is! This concept

is taught by people whether they mean to teach it or not. I'm not meaning to
imply these two individuals I have tacked this email on to don't find value in
themselves or their roles, it is more a feeling I get in life at this time.

As many of you state the role of Women so often is a Thankless Job, but it
doesn't mean it isn't an important one. As has been mentioned many notable men
had mothers or women working for or with them. It is unfortunate that these
women have not rereceivedonors for what they have contributed, but it doesn't
mean that what they contributed was any less valuable. It would trtruelye
wonderful if we all received the kudos we deserved for the important things in
this life we will do, but to be recognized pupubliclyhouldn't be our sole
motivating factor. It seems to me those people who only do things hoping to be
recognized pupubliclyre susufferingrom a major lack of self esteem. We need to
learn and be able to teach inner peace and satisfaction for something we have

done for others can be enough and must be enough of a reward.

I for one feel as a Wife/Mother/Woman my roles are as important as other
nonotablendividuals and my children/family are worth every minute of fight I
have to give or do on their behalf. My children are as important for things to
be right for as any individual on the earth and so my trying to make the world
a better place for them in it, is just as important as winning a nonobelrize;
there are just way less people that know about my role and care about my role
for that matter than, those who care and are impressed by those nonobelrize
winners. I think we forget sometimes that we have a major impact on someones
life good or bad, with every choice we make in our lives, some of us just have
opportunity to influence more peoples lives than others, it still doesn't mean
that those who only influence a small number of individuals is less important
than those who have opportunity to influence great numbers.

These opportunities we are being given by Sally Lyons among others to 'talk'
with you professionals in the field that are so critical to us as parents right
now are how you are helping us parent/professionals work with and understand
those individuals we have direct influence over. The passion I read in these
emails from parents about their kids shows me the cocomittmento many have to
important things in their lives, but it also reminds me we need to sometimes
redefine what is meant by success. Each of us has a vital role to play in the
lives of others and every individual should be important enough to cause us to
play that important role positively rather then negatively. The Worth of Souls
Is Great.

I Thank each of you who help me and my family through information, experience,
guidance etc, and wish you could receive public kudos to signify the depth you
help so many of us, hopefully you see what you have done is worthwhile in the
lives of others.
Thank You,
Ranae

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:08:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040421000804.63333.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1515636712-1082506084=:60438"

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Thank you for sharing your expertise with us, Dr. Reis :-)

Something Sally L. mentioned has been bugging me, too...

Sally_L@comcast.net wrote:
Sally Reis wrote:
>>...I just want to share a connection in my mind. It deals with the word
"underachievement" That word really makes me bristle and I feel it
ties into this question, which I really can't answer fully - yet some
thoughts I will share.... Since women diversify and seek balance and it takes
place "over" the lifetime should gifted women be labeled with "underachievers"?
i.e. less/not a Nobel
or Pulitzer Prize winner...<<

I think you're on to something, here, Sally :-)

The Nobel Prize, for instance, is awarded to those who have achieved remarkable
successes that stem from, and are made possible by, the choice (or luxury) of
pursuing their goals with a single-mindedness...

There is no Nobel Prize for broad achievement in a variety of un-related
fields... no "life-time achievement" awards for the areas of child-rearing,
adult parent care, creative hobbies, home decor, budget stretching, community
service, mentoring, or advocacy.

If the majority of women choose (by free will or by necessity) to multi-task and
diversify their abilities... they will continue to be uneligible for Nobel
Prizes.... but does that equate with "underachievement" or "failure" or "a waste
of talent"?

Why should we be tied to measuring achievement or unachievement of women in the
context of a male-oriented (and male-instituted) value system? Isn't it like
trying to measure liquid volume with a straight-edged ruler?

-julie

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<DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for sharing your expertise with us, Dr. Reis :-)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Something Sally L. mentioned has been bugging me,
too...<BR><BR><B><I>Sally_L@comcast.net</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>Sally Reis wrote:<BR>>>...I just want to share a connection in my
mind. It deals with the word<BR>"underachievement" That word really makes me
bristle and I feel it <BR>ties into this question, which I really can't answer
fully - yet some <BR>thoughts I will share.... Since women diversify and seek
balance and it takes place "over" the lifetime should gifted women be labeled
with "underachievers"?  i.e. less/not a Nobel <BR>or Pulitzer Prize
winner...<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think you're on to something, here, Sally :-)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Nobel Prize, for instance, is awarded to those who have achieved
remarkable successes that stem from, and are made possible by, the choice
(or luxury) of pursuing their goals with a single-mindedness... 
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is no Nobel Prize for broad achievement in a variety of un-related
fields... no "life-time achievement" awards for the areas of child-rearing,
adult parent care, creative hobbies, home decor, budget stretching, community
service, mentoring, or advocacy.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the majority of women choose (by free will or by necessity) to
multi-task and diversify their abilities... they will continue to be uneligible
for Nobel Prizes.... but does that equate with "underachievement"
or "failure" or "a waste of talent"?  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Why should we be tied to measuring achievement or unachievement of women in
the context of a male-oriented (and male-instituted) value system?  Isn't
it like trying to measure liquid volume with a straight-edged ruler? 
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-julie  </DIV></DIV>
--0-1515636712-1082506084=:60438--

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:19:43 -0400
From: Sarah-jane Romano <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BAY7-F58cthvuKWtmX500061ad0@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed

Hello all,

My name is Sarah-Jane Romano and I am a counselor and teacher of the gifted.
Unfortunately I have just gotten on-line as life was first priority :)
but I have a comment which I wonder if others could find the time to
consider and refute or support which is this: my mother has always said,
"You can have it all, just not all at the same time." What do folks think
of that one? I ask b/c this is a message I share with my girls group that I
cofacilitate and I wonder what experts on the subject might think. I also
wonder, what should come first? Developing your self-esteem by following
your passions, or your resume' by following higher education and careers?

What about love? Should gifted girls only date gifted boys, and then only
the high achieving ones so that they are financially solvent, even though
the artsy creative ones are more fun...

I realize these are complex and possibly silly questions but I truly want to
know what others think,

Thanks,

SJ
>From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>Subject: Re: Finding a balance
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:09:51 -0400
>
> >rather than working 60 hours a week to stay competitive. Maybe this "new
>concept" shift as >mentioned in this article will really be a boon for
>those
>in the legal profession, but what about >those jobs in the math and
>sciences?
> >
> > Sally_L
>
>
>As a woman who figured out only after having children that I might have had
>more potential than I thought when I was young, I have made many choices
>and
>career "swerves" within the sciences over the years (I'm still swerving

>violently as we "speak" here, but not at the moment "gainfully employed").
>Although I do not regret any of my choices and am often amazed at how one
>educational or career experience (or parenting experience) has so often led
>to another opportunity (often one that I would not have predicted in a
>million years), I do often find myself frustrated at having to jump through
>hoops once again to prove my worth in a new environment.
>
>I have heard this from other "zig zag women" I've met (I picked that term
>up
>from a magazine article in around 1996/97 -- the year that I quit my 16
>year
>PhDless biomedical research career to stay home with my then two year old
>twins), but I have to say I have also heard it from my husband (46), my
>father (77) and other gifted men whose careers have "evolved" over the
>years
>rather than followed a straight path to wherever they found themselves in
>their 40s or 50s. As a matter of fact, my 36 year old brother-in-law is

>applying to law school this year -- the last person in the world one would
>have expected to go into law, but his other degrees and work and life
>experiences have convinced him that he can make his "mark" best if he has a
>law degree!
>
>I wonder how much impact a person's childhood self concept (knowing they
>are
>"smart" or "gifted" and really believing it when their parents tell them
>"you can do anything") has on their future achievement. How many "zig zag"
>careers are the result of choices happily made by someone who feels that
>they were truly capable of "doing it all" but chose not to, and how many
>are
>choices made -- maybe happily -- because of lack of self confidence?
>
>In my own case, the most distressing part is that it seems so apparent to
>my
>son and daughter at the particular age they are now (9, finishing 4th
>grade)
>that the choices able women make [no matter how glad we are that we have

>made them and how much we believe that the diverse experiences we have had
>because of those choices is actually strengthening our potential for future
>achievements as well as benefiting our family at the time] make us "appear"
>to be less successful than we really are/have been and that it will impact
>their choices in the future.
>
>Actually, I think I'm going to ask them a couple of questions since they
>tell me they "don't have any homework" again tonight, and see what kind of
>feedback I get from two 9 year olds....
>
>Another comment I want to make has to do with the effect of relationships
>on
>achievement for women. I know many "dual gifted/dual career" couples and
>many "dual gifted/sometimes dual career/sometimes single career couples"
>who
>met early in life and have no regrets. I am one of them, and honestly, the
>track I was on before I met my husband at 17 is likely to have left me more
>of an "underachiever" much earlier in life and without the confidence to

>realize that I can make another choice down the road when the time is
>right.
>He was the one who convinced me two years after we met that I wouldn't
>flunk
>out of college if I changed my major from what was then (in 1975) the
>"default major" for girls who had no clue what to do in college --
>elementary ed (ironic isn't it, that I am now passionate about getting more
>science into elementary schools and hoping to go back to education in my
>"next" career?) -- to microbiology, even though I had taken virtually no
>math or science after my sophmore year in highschool.
>
>Speaking of choices, it's time to go sign my son up for fall soccer because
>my husband is out of town at a conference. (But he took his three students
>with him -- two male grad students and a female undergrad from the honors
>college -- so I guess my current choices and ability to attend conferences
>only on-line are indirectly impacting a young gifted girl who will get more

>time from her professor because of his wife's choices -- is that a
>rationalization or what???)
>
>I'll let you know later what my kids' current feelings are about the
>different gifted women they know in various jobs.
>
>Susan Grammer
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Sally_L@comcast.net>
>To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 3:53 PM
>Subject: Finding a balance
>
>
> > Dr. Reis,
> > Yes, finding a balance is so very important. By coincidence there is an
>article in a Salt Lake newspaper which may be very interesting for list
>members to read http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595057355,00.html
> > Often women underachieve by accepting jobs which allows them to more
>time
>with family rather than working 60 hours a week to stay competitive. Maybe
>this "new concept" shift as mentioned in this article will really be a boon
>for those in the legal profession, but what about those jobs in the math
>and
>sciences?
> >
> > Sally_L
> >
> >
>

_________________________________________________________________
>From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring
Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:26:40 -0400
From: Sarah-jane Romano <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BAY7-F18X6GxrQfaPtR00066a89@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

Hello,

Again I apologize for my late entry and this may be a moot point, but, I
think a powerful girl is a girl who knows how to behave and conducts herself
with pride so that when she does raise her hand and "bust out" she is taken
seriously. As women we must be smart AND shocking and have the good
judgement to know when is which.

My question is, how specifically do we grow our girls to be thus?

>From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:19:04 -0400
>

>I so agree. I often tell parents of girls (with apologies to those of you
>who have read my book) that some parents concentrate too much on manners in
>their talented daughters. I want us to raise gifted girls who speak out,
>challenge authority, and ask too many questions!! Maybe the world would be
>a
>different place if that happened. Thanks for raising that point, Sally
>I will sign back on in 20 minutes. Going to grab a drink. me
>--
>Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
>Professor and Department Head
>Department of Educational Psychology
>University of Connecticut
>2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
>Storrs, CT 06269-3007
>Ph: 860-486-0618
>Fax: 860-486-2900
>sally.reis@uconn.edu
>
>Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information about
>our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three Summers
>Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection,
>Parenting
>Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research Center

>on the Gifted and Talented.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: Sally_L@comcast.net
> > Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:11:17 +0000
> > To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
> >
> > Hi Susan,
> > You wrote:
> > With girls, it is often the parents who identify underachievement and
>seek to
> > find the cause. Meanwhile, the schools are telling the parents that
>their
> > daughters are lovely children, well-behaved etc
> >
> > "well-behaved" caught my attention. I visited Moab, Utah last week and
>in a
> > store filled with clothing and equipment for outdoor adventures - white
>water
> > river rafting, hummer safaris, mountain biking, etc there was a T-shirt
>with
> > the following saying:
> >
> > No well-behaved woman will ever make history
> >
> > I know you were focusing on learning disabilities in gifted girls, but
> > acceptable behavior i.e. well-behaved for the female gender is
>definitely an

> > aspect which is a barrier IMHO.
> >
> > Sally_L
> >
> >
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:29:38 -0400
From: Michelle Wilson <mlwilson@one.net>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <010001c42737$bbb82ab0$ac6917d8@newpc>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> Actually, my recollection of engineering school in the early 80s was that
it
> was taboo to think or speak of marriage or children. It was assumed among
> all of the women, and everyone else there, that careers were first and
> foremost in our minds, to exclusion of everything else.

I experienced the reverse. As one of 3 women in the Chem Eng MS program, I
was constantly asked what I was doing there and why I wasn't home having
babies!

Michelle

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:37:01 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Success
To: Ourgifted-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040037.3582.4085C22D000E28A500000DFE2200735834FF91908693D18693939E@comcas
t.net>

I just want to share a quote by Eleanor Roosevelt which Dr Reis included on page
277 - Chapter Ten - Recommendations for Developing Talents & Gifts in Females.

"A successful life for a man or for a woman seems to me to lie in the knowledge
that one has developed to the limit the capacities with which one was endowed;
that one has contributed something constructive to family and friends and to a
home community; that one has brought happiness wherever it was possible; that
one has earned on's way in the world, has kept some friends, and need not be
ashamed to face oneself honestly."

Enjoy,
Sally_L

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040421003946.1547.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

wow something happened to my spell check, sorry hope it still makes sense.

Ranae

--- Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Donna LaLangloishite <dodonna43@cox.net> wrote:
> > I haven't read this thread but I will make a few comments. I graduated high
> > school in 1975 when we were told that we (women) could do anything. We
> could
> > do it all. No one was there however to show us how to do that. Just like
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lisa C." <ljljchoquetteox.net>
> > I haven't been terribly involved in the Society
> > > of Women Engineers because I can't honestly suggest to other young women
> > > that they can do it all.
> > >
>

> Hello again,
>
> I just can't sit by and not say anything about the idea so many people in
> this
> world have about how unimportant the role of a Woman/Mother is! This concept
> is taught by people whether they mean to teach it or not. I'm not meaning to
> imply these two individuals I have tacked this email on to don't find value
> in
> themselves or their roles, it is more a feeling I get in life at this time.
>
> As many of you state the role of Women so often is a Thankless Job, but it
> doesn't mean it isn't an important one. As has been mentioned many notable
> men
> had mothers or women working for or with them. It is unfortunate that these
> women have not rereceivedonors for what they have contributed, but it doesn't
> mean that what they contributed was any less valuable. It would trtruelye
> wonderful if we all received the kudos we deserved for the important things
> in
> this life we will do, but to be recognized pupubliclyhouldn't be our sole

> motivating factor. It seems to me those people who only do things hoping to
> be
> recognized pupubliclyre susufferingrom a major lack of self esteem. We need
> to
> learn and be able to teach inner peace and satisfaction for something we have
> done for others can be enough and must be enough of a reward.
>
> I for one feel as a Wife/Mother/Woman my roles are as important as other
> nonotablendividuals and my children/family are worth every minute of fight I
> have to give or do on their behalf. My children are as important for things
> to
> be right for as any individual on the earth and so my trying to make the
> world
> a better place for them in it, is just as important as winning a nonobelrize;
> there are just way less people that know about my role and care about my role
> for that matter than, those who care and are impressed by those nonobelrize
> winners. I think we forget sometimes that we have a major impact on someones

> life good or bad, with every choice we make in our lives, some of us just
> have
> opportunity to influence more peoples lives than others, it still doesn't
> mean
> that those who only influence a small number of individuals is less important
> than those who have opportunity to influence great numbers.
>
> These opportunities we are being given by Sally Lyons among others to 'talk'
> with you professionals in the field that are so critical to us as parents
> right
> now are how you are helping us parent/professionals work with and understand
> those individuals we have direct influence over. The passion I read in these
> emails from parents about their kids shows me the cocomittmento many have to
> important things in their lives, but it also reminds me we need to sometimes
> redefine what is meant by success. Each of us has a vital role to play in
> the
> lives of others and every individual should be important enough to cause us
> to

> play that important role positively rather then negatively. The Worth of
> Souls
> Is Great.
>
> I Thank each of you who help me and my family through information,
> experience,
> guidance etc, and wish you could receive public kudos to signify the depth
> you
> help so many of us, hopefully you see what you have done is worthwhile in the
> lives of others.
> Thank You,
> Ranae
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:44:18 -0700
From: Kate Little <ice_time@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Good afternoon - really is Balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BAY8-F70P9CDBHy3Spw0001fc65@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed

Clearly, our two schools had very different cultures. Where I was, science,
math or engineering were the only majors. So it was assumed that if you
were there, being a techie/geek was your highest life priority. They didn't
wonder why you weren't majoring in English or Music or Home Ec, because
those were not available to major in. In many ways, the school was great,
because noone was noticing gender differences. On the other hand, I was
somewhat un-prepared to understand gender differences when they hit full
force (ie - I had the baby, not my husband).

So how do we teach girls that they are simultaneously same and different?
What are the major choices and decisions that they will have to make? There

is a tendency among teens not to want to hear "stupid" adults, especially if
they are parents, so is there any advice which I, as a parent, could convey,
anyway?

Kate

>From: Michelle Wilson <mlwilson@one.net>
>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:29:38 -0400
>
> > Actually, my recollection of engineering school in the early 80s was
>that
>it
> > was taboo to think or speak of marriage or children. It was assumed
>among
> > all of the women, and everyone else there, that careers were first and
> > foremost in our minds, to exclusion of everything else.
>
>I experienced the reverse. As one of 3 women in the Chem Eng MS program, I
>was constantly asked what I was doing there and why I wasn't home having
>babies!
>
>Michelle
>

_________________________________________________________________
Lose those love handles! MSN Fitness shows you two moves to slim your waist.

http://fitness.msn.com/articles/feeds/article.aspx?dept=exercise&article=et_pv_0
30104_lovehandles

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:57:51 +0800
From: Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
Subject: Empowering gifted girls and women
To: Ourgifted-L <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Message-id: <BCABE80F.1AED8%tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Sorry to 'barge in' on this conference so late... or so early for me in
Western Australia! I have only had time to read a few of the wonderful posts
so far so please excuse me if I am repeating something already discussed.

I found my own giftedness as a result of having my son, who is profoundly
gifted. I returned to university at 38 (after dropping out at 18) and am
studying politics and women's studies.

One thing that strikes me in the commentary is discussion on talent and
professional development in pursuit of career goals. Society is structured
in such a way that it privileges masculine ideations of success, such as

wealth, career and status. Institutions, such as education and government
are similarly structured, and reinforced by social norms and mass media.

As gifted girls and women move through these institutions and are influenced
by the external factors, they appear to be taking on these goals,
assimilating into a masculine millieu in order to 'feel' successful. In my
view this is one of the fundamental causes of the conflict within women in
how they address the competing goals of self-actualisation, career
development and family/relationships.

I am now asking myself whether this forced choice dilemma manifests itelf in
self-harm, depression, giving up relationships and family for career goals,
which may later leave a gaping hole in a woman's life, and lifelong regret.

How do we empower women to seek different, more femocentric goals (even to
the point of elevating the status of motherhood as something desirable to
achieve rather than an impediment to career success), different

constructions of knowledge, to engage in reshaping society such that it no
longer privleges masculine ideations of successful achievement but embraces
femocentric models of success?

One way is through women's studies programs, which all girls should really
be encouraged to undertake. Many are not because of the myth of the 'man
hating' feminist, or the other myth that we are somehow 'post-feminist'.
Understanding social structure and knowledge construction, and the subtle
and not so subtle ways that it disadvantages women, is a first step toward
breaking down barriers for women to self-actualise as women, not in pursuit
of masculine ideations of success.

Sally, if you have time I would be interested in your views on this topic. I
am specifically interested in why you suggest that girls and women need to
deny themselves loving relationships early in life in order to
self-actualise, when men don't. Surely it would be better to embrace this

need in women as part of the self-actualising process, but to work around
the barriers that it creates.

One of my favourite explanations on the difference between how women and men
think and construct relationships is from Carol Gilligan:

"Gilligan asked women of varying ages, to describe their views of self and
morality. From these interviews, she defines a feminine view of the world as
comprised of a web of interconnections and contrasts this perspective with
the male view of a world comprised of hierarchical relationships. As
Gilligan explains:

The images of hierarchy and web, drawn from the texts of men's and women's
fantasies and thought, convey different ways of structuring relationships
and are associated with different views of morality and self. But these
images create a problem in understanding because each distorts the other's
representation. As the top of the hierarchy becomes the edge of the web and
as the center of a network of connection becomes the middle of a

hierarchical progression, each image marks as dangerous the place which the
other defines as safe. (p. 62)

Thus, Gilligan characterizes women's fear of success as essentially a fear
of being alone at the top without a supporting network of equal
relationships."
http://www.ditd.org/floater.php?location=162
Vulnerabilities of Highly Gifted Children

Hence when we look at talent development and career counselling for gifted
girls and women, it is important that it is done in such a way as to be in
sympathy with the 'natural' or preferred way that women engage with
relationships and self-actualise. At the moment I see a lot of emphasis on
masculine goals of career, wealth and status in the goals set out for women'
achievement.

Thus in my view we must empower gifted girls and women to think outside the
current social structure and to create femocentric knowledges, webs and
networks which will ultimately resolve some of the forced choice dilemmas

girls and women face. It may also result in a much more peaceful and
cohesive global community as women assert greater influence in decision
making bodies and institutional structures.

all the best
Tracy
Pemberton, Western Australia
tracy@cycloneco.com.au
----------------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
‹Eleanor Roosevelt, American First Lady, Civil Rights Activist

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 01:05:26 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: ADMIN: Technical Problems - Plan to follow
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040105.8012.4085C8D6000558F400001F4C2200750744FF91908693D18693939E@comcas
t.net>

Hi List Members,

I was talking with Dr. Reis on the telephone. We have a problem, but there is
also a plan to deal with the UConn server no longer being up and running. What
are the chances that the UConn server would go down during the last hour of Dr.
Reis' conference? Any staticians out there? Okay - once in a blue moon should
suffice:)

Therefore, here is the plan.

Dr. Reis is very willing to answer any questions directed to her as posted
during the last hour of the planned conference. I indicated to her that she can
do this whenever it best fits into her schedule, therefore we may see posts at
various times, etc

Perhaps what will be most helpful - Label any additional questions to Dr. Reis
with her name in the subject line.

List members , please feel free to chat among yourselves for the next little
bit:)

Dr. Reis will also write a closing statement. Following that - whenever that
takes place - I will post the "The conference is now closed" notice.

Isn't technology wonderful when it works? but what an experience of frustration
when it doesn't. LOL

Dr. Reis thank you for sharing your time and expertise. Please know that we
appreciate your willingness to spend some time with us. I guess the server has a
mind of its own? LOL whenever you can fit us in, that is totally fine.

Kindest regards,
Sally_L
List Manager
Conference Coordinator
www.neiu.edu/~ourgift

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:14:16 -0400
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
Subject: Re: Future action
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB4328.21D7%sally.reis@uconn.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hi Sally, back on now: there are a number of training opportunities
available. In particular, there is the Sadker training at George Washington
University. Hope all is well, me

> From: Sally_L@comcast.net
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:57:17 +0000
> To: Ourgifted-l@neiu.edu
> Subject: Future action
>
> Dr. Reis,
>
> In your book - Work Left Undone on page 312 there is a comment about teachers
> needing training to establish equity in classroom interactions. What is this
> training? Only awareness of the problem or is there an actual training course
> available to teachers?
>
> Sally_L
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:16:53 -0400
From: Sarah-jane Romano <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BAY7-F100MLfSHmFssI00066cb2@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

Hello, I hope it is appropriate to make a comment though you asked Sally...

I am a counselor and teacher of pre-ad/adolescent girls and my experience
(not any research I have done, mind you!) with cutting suggests that most
often girls cut from a desire to shave down themselves, that is, make
smaller, less. Girls are victim to the vampire of skinny, and no girl feels
it more keenly than a really smart, really intuitive young woman.

Others?

>From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:34 -0400
>

>Thank you so much for doing this, Sally!
>
>I work with gifted adolescents, and increasingly, I am being told by them
>of
>their 'need' to self-injure. These are not suicidal ideations. In some
>cases, they report a desire to punish, but for others, it seems to be for
>stimulation or sensation - still others claim to use it to distract from
>emotional pain.
>
>How can a counselor, a teacher, or a parent respond? And why is it
>principally the gifted girls doing this (though some gifted boys) and not
>the general population?
>
>Josh Shaine
>

_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:20:51 -0700
From: Kate Little <ice_time@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BAY8-F57qO9vy0Xx3KC0001bef1@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed

Yo Sally_L - can I ask you a question off line? - Kate

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:33:07 -0400
From: Michelle Wilson <mlwilson@one.net>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <018301c42740$9a0a6820$ac6917d8@newpc>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

<<Maybe this "new concept" shift as mentioned in this article will really be
a boon for those in the legal profession, but what about those jobs in the
math and sciences?>>

Sally,

I work in the sciences as a pharmaceutical regulatory consultant. I started
out working the traditional 60 hours a week in a large corporation way back
when. Left that after 10 years and worked for several small companies. I
thought I'd have better job security if I worked for myself, and I did. I
started consulting in 1996. I currently have a 35 hour per week consulting
job at one small company and I love it. I get to do lots of different jobs,
my input matters and my hours are flexible, within reason. The company also

tries hard to limit my travel. I've actually gone over a year without a
business trip! I think it's possible to find a flexible job in the
sciences, but one has to look for them. There's probably more flexibility
in small companies than large. And the type of job also matters. It would
much harder to find a job doing science in a lab than it was for me to find
more of a science based paper pushing job.

Michelle

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:33:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Putting the needs of others first
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040421013324.93142.qmail@web80513.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1435335449-1082511204=:91148"

--0-1435335449-1082511204=:91148
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

"Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu> wrote:
>>... She sounds like a wonderful, generous girl who
loves her older brother... I might say something like, "what a kind
generous thing to do, but if you want that egg, it is yours and you should
eat it." In other words, praise the action, but let her know that she is in
charge of her decisions and choices....<<

Just speaking as a mom :-) ... I might also (on the side) explain to your son
that he doesn't always need to accept the things that others offer him. That it
is sometimes more noble to turn down what is offered, and thereby return the
generosity.

-julie

--0-1435335449-1082511204=:91148
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV><B><I>"Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>>>... She sounds like a wonderful, generous girl who<BR>loves her
older brother...   I might say something like, "what a
kind<BR>generous thing to do, but if you want that egg, it is yours and you
should<BR>eat it." In other words, praise the action, but let her know that she
is in<BR>charge of her decisions and choices....<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just speaking as a mom :-) ... I might also (on the side) explain to
your son that he doesn't always need to accept the things that others offer
him.  That it is sometimes more noble to turn down what
is offered, and thereby return the generosity.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-julie </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
--0-1435335449-1082511204=:91148--

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 01:38:02 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Dr. Reis: Empowering gifted girls and women
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040138.10192.4085D07A0009A2BE000027D02200761438FF91908693D18693939E@comca
st.net>

Tracy wrote:
> Sally, if you have time I would be interested in your views on this topic. I
> am specifically interested in why you suggest that girls and women need to
> deny themselves loving relationships early in life in order to
> self-actualise, when men don't. Surely it would be better to embrace this
> need in women as part of the self-actualising process, but to work around
> the barriers that it creates.

Yes, please address this view. Why? I am raising sons and it appears to me that
highly gifted young men can be extremely mature along with highly gifted young
women.
I have observed very supportive "friendship"s i.e. the male giving great
encouragement to continue on with plans for medical school for a female who is
doubting her abilities i.e. 4.0 GPA high SATs - should have been in college at
age
15. This great friendship is nurturing and very supportive to both.

There was a prior post indicating that without her husband that she would not
have achieved to the level she is - sorry can't remember your name.

Also when I shared the information on page 56 concerning the research project
by Dr Cynthia Mee where girls were asked the question, "what is the best thing
about being a girl?
My 15 year old son responded that those answers didn't fit any girls he knows
and wondered if the date of the research (1995) was no longer reflective
of girls in 2004?

I guess for me if girls feel like they can have it all then why would they feel
that there is nothing good about being a girl?

It sure would be fun to have a panel of gifted teens of both genders
addressing this issue.

Sally_L

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:51:07 -0400
From: Keri Guilbault <kguilbault@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200404210150.i3L1oVVs020114@ms-smtp-04.tampabay.rr.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hi SJ,

In my county cutting has been a huge issue this year. I work for our school
district's SAFE office (Student Assistance and Family Empowerment) and many
of our counselors who have responded to cutting incidences have noticed that
the females claim to do it for the sensation or thrill- just as taking drugs
to get a high. In very few cases this year has the cause been related to
attempted suicide and, in fact, a lot of the middle and high school girls
doing this were considered in the "popular" crowds. There seemed to also be
more of a correlation to cutting and eating disorders or cutting and sexual

activity in our schools than to cutting oneself due to stress related to
school pressures or high intelligence.

Thank you, Dr. Reis for your time this evening. This has been very
interesting and extremely helpful.

Keri Guilbault
Gifted Children Coordinator
Central Florida Mensa
http://www.youngmensa.org

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
Behalf Of Sarah-jane Romano
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:17 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury

Hello, I hope it is appropriate to make a comment though you asked Sally...

it more keenly than a really smart, really intuitive young woman.

Others?

>From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:34 -0400
>
>Thank you so much for doing this, Sally!
>
>I work with gifted adolescents, and increasingly, I am being told by them
>of
>their 'need' to self-injure. These are not suicidal ideations. In some
>cases, they report a desire to punish, but for others, it seems to be for
>stimulation or sensation - still others claim to use it to distract from
>emotional pain.
>
>How can a counselor, a teacher, or a parent respond? And why is it
>principally the gifted girls doing this (though some gifted boys) and not
>the general population?
>
>Josh Shaine
>

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:05:35 -0400
From: Keri Guilbault <kguilbault@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200404210204.i3L24wuI002129@ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

This is fascinating to me. I have had conversations with other
exceptionally and profoundly gifted friends both male and female about
earliest memories and early speech and it did seem that the females
remembered events as young as age 1, 2 and 3 and the males averaged around
age 4 or 5. As a graduate student, I was taught that memory and language
were linked so that one's earliest memories would not precede their first
words and comprehension of language. My mother has kept detailed records and
anecdotes of her 5 gifted children's development and I noticed that my first

words were spoken around 6 months of age, linking words by 10 months,
sentences at 1, and my mother claimed that I could understanding her speech
and directions well before my first birthday. I have a few memories from
age 2 of being in my crib looking out the window and up at the mobile and of
walking through our apartment looking for my ride-on toys in the closet.
When I described the layout of the apartment to my mother a few years ago
she verified that it was accurate and we did not have any home movies or
photos that showed this particular apartment which we lived in for a few
months while my father was finishing up his degree. I wonder how important
language is to the engraving of those visual memories and why I can recall
things that seem so insignificant (finding my toys or observing a boring
mobile move around in a circle) and not remember something that happened
around the same time which would have been much more emotional (getting our
new puppy, first trip on an airplane, etc.)

I am going to look for your article, Drew. Thanks!

Keri Guilbault
Gifted Children Coordiantor
Central Florida Mensa
http://www.youngmensa.org

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
Behalf Of Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:44 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?

There was one quotation in the article from the earliest memory of an
exceptionally bright female psychologist, who recalled having her daiper
changed by someone who was doing it incorrectly; the young girl (reportedly
at about age 1) was screaming, angry, frustrated. The earliest memories of
the male psychologists were generally happy and social four year old
memories of a world full of confidence and extraverted play.

The novel was Frank Herbert's Dune, but the idea of the negative effects of
becoming fully conscious at too early an age are explored more in the
sequel, Children of Dune.

Drew

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:45:50 -0400
From: "Kathryn M. Finn" <kitfinn@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <40859A0E.142.10EC4E4B@localhost>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

I have less wide-ranging contact with teenagers than Josh does.
My work is on line community - both for adults and for teens. Josh
is involved in a couple of teen internet communities that I am
involved with, and I'd like to comment on what I am seeing there.

I get told they cut. I don't "see" it, and they could be telling me
untruths, but they say they do. I also occasionally get told of
anorexia or bulimia. The profiles seem similar. My teen
communities are not issue oriented. Kids come to it because they
share admiration for a particular author. They tend, by self-report,
to be a high achieving and high intelligence group. Not bragging -
they rarely brag. But still - you figure things out when a child

mentions that she's taking five AP courses at once.

The rate of self-report of self-injury is many times the estimate I find
in the literature - in a group that is *not* preselected for having any
sort of issues. Certainly there are some who self-injure and do not
say so. My guess would be that that number is larger than any
likelihood of claiming falsely to be doing so.

My conversations with those who work with gifted teens in a
counseling or teaching capacity confirms that the problem exists
and is large enough to be worrisome. They also feel that the
estimates in the literature are low, especially among girls. But I do
not do research.

I am not in the position of a counselor or a teacher to these kids.
My function is making the online community run smoothly.
However, they know I am an adult - I am told I am one of "their
grown-ups". My response is important. I cannot ignore what they
tell me. I rarely have access to parents. One can comb the

archives for innocently dropped clues, and occasionally find
enough. If worried I will do so. But I cannot promise that I will
always be able to find a parent at need. Normally I deal with kids
called something along the line of "ladyknight" or "ballerina-
equestrian" when I'm lucky and "messedup" or "twisted angel"
when I'm not. Said child can usually be located to the nearest
continent, occasionally to a state or a metropolitan area. But
hotmail email addresses could be anywhere. Knowing that
"mykeknowsall" who has just admitted to cutting is somewhere in
England does not lead you straight to an adult. Talking him into
telling is not quick, easy, or always successful.

What I see is children under enormous pressure, children who
literally think that perfection is the minimum standard. Children who
face the loss of all social life, all electronics, and their bedroom
door for the sin of inadequate grades or talking back. And their

definition of inadequate grades is often in the B plus range.

A recent example is a child who confessed to recurrent nightmares
in which her extended family explain the shame of being related to
her because her grade point average is a mere 3.8, she's only
pretty rather than beautiful, weighs about ten pounds more than
she should, has no chance of being homecoming queen, is only a
good athlete, and is slacking off by only taking three AP courses in
her senior year. Obviously she is a disgrace and a loser and will
never get into the college of her dreams. Judging from other
thoughts she has shared it's unlikely in the extreme that any
authority will label her abused - spoiled rotten is more likely. But
she feels deeply inadequate, and the pressures her parents place
on her for success are not unrelated to that. That particular child
has been fighting bulimia rather than cutting - but the same sort of
stories come from both groups.

We do need to worry about girls getting the message that
achievement is not asked of them. But we also need to worry about
girls getting the message that no level of accomplishment within
their reach could possibly be enough.

My group is only a small portion of the kids Josh knows and deals
with. He tells me he's seeing the same patterns in the non-internet
communities. I hear parents worry deeply about depression.
They're seeing self-injury as well. It's out there and it's real. And it's
about more than body image.

Kit Finn
director@tagfam.org

> it more keenly than a really smart, really intuitive young woman.
>
> Others?
>
> SJ
>
>
> >From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
> >Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
> >Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:34 -0400
> >
> >Thank you so much for doing this, Sally!
> >
> >I work with gifted adolescents, and increasingly, I am being told by them
> >of
> >their 'need' to self-injure. These are not suicidal ideations. In some
> >cases, they report a desire to punish, but for others, it seems to be for
> >stimulation or sensation - still others claim to use it to distract from
> >emotional pain.
> >
> >How can a counselor, a teacher, or a parent respond? And why is it
> >principally the gifted girls doing this (though some gifted boys) and not
> >the general population?
> >
> >Josh Shaine
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________

> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:15:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Empowering gifted girls and women
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040421021523.16988.qmail@web80508.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-572777801-1082513723=:16346"

--0-572777801-1082513723=:16346
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Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au> wrote:
>>... Society is structured in such a way that it privileges masculine ideations
of success, such as wealth, career and status.

Gilligan..... [from interviews with women]... defines a feminine view of the
world as
comprised of a web of interconnections and contrasts this perspective with
the male view of a world comprised of hierarchical relationships....

...Thus in my view we must empower gifted girls and women to think outside the
current social structure and to create femocentric knowledges, webs and
networks which will ultimately resolve some of the forced choice dilemmas
girls and women face. It may also result in a much more peaceful and
cohesive global community as women assert greater influence in decision
making bodies and institutional structures....<<

This reminds me of a very interesting documentary that I saw on TV within the
last year or two... it was a round-table discussion composed of women at the
tops of their fields. There were women from politics, government, media,
military, the arts... who had all risen to the top of (in most cases)
male-dominated fields.

The women discussed their trials and tribulations and joys in reaching their
levels of success. It was wonderfully enthralling to hear their tales. Then,
in the closing minutes, the (male) commentator asked several of them, as his
closing question, "What would you do, if you were the leader of the world?"

The women were mostly stumped and taken aback (as I was, just watching) - it was
a totally irrelevant question from a female (femocentric) point of view.

I don't think it is the personal goal of many women to "rule the world" - and I
don't mean to assume the liberty to speak for all women, here, - but,
personally, I would rather that the world straighten up and rule itself... act
like grown-ups, keep your hands to yourselves, respect other people's property,
be true to your word, be kind to each other, and do your part to make this world
a better place.

A web vs. a heirarchy... a community vs. a self-serving single-mindedness...
work for the good of the whole, not just the betterment of self... Are these
really ideals that we want to caste aside... just so we can fit into the
traditional male ideals of success/achievement?

-julie

--0-572777801-1082513723=:16346
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<DIV><B><I>Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>>>... Society is structured in such a way that it privileges
masculine ideations of success, such as wealth, career and status. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gilligan..... [from interviews with women]...  defines a feminine
view of the world as<BR>comprised of a web of interconnections and contrasts
this perspective with<BR>the male view of a world comprised of hierarchical
relationships....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>...Thus in my view we must empower gifted girls and women to think outside
the<BR>current social structure and to create femocentric knowledges, webs
and<BR>networks which will ultimately resolve some of the forced choice
dilemmas<BR>girls and women face. It may also result in a much more peaceful
and<BR>cohesive global community as women assert greater influence in
decision<BR>making bodies and institutional structures....<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This reminds me of a very interesting documentary that I saw on TV within
the last year or two... it was a round-table discussion composed
of women at the tops of their fields.  There were women from politics,
government, media, military, the arts... who had all risen to the top of (in
most cases) male-dominated fields.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The women discussed their trials and tribulations and joys in reaching
their levels of success.  It was wonderfully enthralling to hear their
tales.  Then, in the closing minutes, the (male) commentator asked several
of them, as his closing question, "What would you do, if you were
the leader of the world?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The women were mostly stumped and taken aback (as I was, just watching) -
it was a totally irrelevant question from a female (femocentric) point of
view.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think it is the personal goal of many women to "rule the world" -
and I don't mean to assume the liberty to speak for all women, here, - but,
personally, I would rather that the world straighten up and rule itself...
act like grown-ups, keep your hands to yourselves, respect other people's
property, be true to your word, be kind to each other, and do your part to
make this world a better place.   </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A web vs. a heirarchy... a community vs. a self-serving
single-mindedness... work for the good of the whole, not just the betterment of
self...   Are these really ideals that we want to caste
aside...  just so we can fit into the traditional male ideals of
success/achievement?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-julie</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
--0-572777801-1082513723=:16346--

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:31:05 +0800
From: Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
Subject: Re: Empowering gifted girls and women
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCABFDE8.1AEEA%tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

on 21/4/04 10:15 AM, Julie Knapp at littleredhenschool@yahoo.com wrote:

> A web vs. a heirarchy... a community vs. a self-serving single-mindedness...
> work for the good of the whole, not just the betterment of self... Are these
> really ideals that we want to caste aside... just so we can fit into the
> traditional male ideals of success/achievement?

Well said Julie, you expressed my own concerns very well. When we 'talent
develop' in girls and women, is it in institutionally masculine ways?

And in many ways, self-actualisation at the highest levels can come from
working for the betterment of the whole than individual self gain. This also

ties in with Dabrowski's theory of Positive Disintegration.

in peace,
Tracy
Pemberton, Western Australia
tracy@cycloneco.com.au

-----
³I resent the creation of a world in which beauty is a reminder of what
we¹re losing, rather than a celebration of what we¹ve got.²

Ben Elton

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:35:20 -0400
From: "Lindy McD. & Dick F." <rfritts@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <4085DDE8.8090204@comcast.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Josh Shaine wrote:

>This is from a 1986 survey on the subject: "She is female, in her mid-20s to
>early 30s, and has been hurting herself since her teens. She tends to be
>middle- or upper-middle-class, intelligent, well-educated, and from a
>background of physical and/or sexual abuse or from a home with at least one
>alcoholic parent. Eating disorders were often reported."
>
>Of course, the irony of that is that if she "has been hurting herself since
>her teens," then their profile is obviously skewed.
>
>
>
Okay, my response, based on having a daughter guilty here, is it could
also be the result of depression, for it is connected with that, and in

my daughter's case, Bi-polar, in fact. And bi-polar is matter that does
have a high incidence of very gifted people, in fact, with this
condition. It is very complicated. But see, here, there is not abuse, or
alcoholism or anything else that explains it. Her Grandmother (father's
side) is bi-polar, and it does have a genetic component. My daughter
said her self-injury was a way of distracting the pain of the
depression, actually, that much she understood, and stopped doing it, in
fact. There is more to this story of course, but I think one has to be
very careful in assessing the cause of such behavior. As I said, the way
I see giftedness impacting it is really that bi-polar is so often found
in people of very high intelligence. It is not required, of course, but
there is a very high incidence of it, which may account for some of this
behavior.

Kindest best regards, Lindy

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:37:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: JDCWilker@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <104.4460a07f.2db73866@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/20/2004 7:08:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kitfinn@cox.net writes:
>I hear parents worry deeply about depression.
>They're seeing self-injury as well. It's out there and it's real. And it's
>about more than body image.
>
>Kit Finn

Kit - you are right ... its one way of releasing tension and depression ...
or at least it feels that way to some. For the girl I knew, it was not at all
body image but tension from PG isolation and trying to release it, somehow.
Just one data point. You have many.

Julie

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 02:44:07 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Re: compare & contrast was Undiagnosed learning disabilities in
gifted girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040244.26671.4085DFF7000482830000682F2200745672FF91908693D18693939E@comca
st.net>

Susan,
Your child's responses on her assignment were so endearing. I loved it! This
reminds me of my
son's "most embarrassing story his mom tell's about his childhood" LOL maybe I
will share that later in this post.

I would like to tie your daughter's comments on her assignment with the chapter
Dr. Reis wrote about the study where girls were
asked "What is the best thing about being a girl" compared to boys being asked
"what is the best thing about being a boy" question. It is on page 56

After I read the part about the girls' answers, I then asked my 15 year old
son, what his answer would be to - "What is the best thing about being a boy?".
(We were on vacation sitting by a pool trying not to get sunburned LOL but
totally relaxing:) Ofcourse he rolled his eyes at me.) He
tried to ignore me, so I rephrased the question, okay what do you think other
boys would answer. He came up with this - Other boys, whether they are 2
years old or 92 years old and every age inbetween would answer - if they were
being truthful - The best thing being a boy is to being able to pee standing up.
He asked what were the answers given in the book - I read to him - "not being a
girl" and "we can do more things". He claimed that his answer matched the polite
male answer given to the female - (non-mom) adult asking the question - not
being a girl.

I think this ties into your 6 years old daughter's very honest response as asked
on her first grade assignment - "Scott has a penuus."

I am not sure about the conclusions that differences equate to feelings of
negativism. maybe it is just noting a basic biological difference which

view by children as simply that. I am not sure that what is written on page 57

" The most difficult conflict faced by the majority of gifted women I have
studied revolves around their relationships, the knowledge of their
relationship, and especially their understanding that they may become mothers...
These external barriers often interact with internal barriers causing many
gifted women to lower their expectations."

As a mom to boys I really want to raise them to be capable to create/have/enjoy
healthy relationships and I am a bit confused as to tell them
that it is recommended that they stay out of "gifted" girl's lives until they
are much much older chronologically.

Oh, for the funny story - Remember when the book came out titledn Men are from
Mars and Women are from Venus? My son was quite young, but stated that this
author had this all wrong. I thought - Oh no!! I shouldn't leave my books all
over the house and braced myself for what I thought would be a long discussion.
He simply stated that Men should be from Venus, because Venus rhymed with penis.

I guess my point is that maybe the conclusions from statements from kids really
mean something simple and in the future their world will be different and not
cast or viewed that women's roles are negative, less successful, by just a
simple compare and contrast?

Tracy - I love your posts and I want to reread what I quickly read - your choice
of words are so enlightening.

Sally_L

LOL Well, is that one of the
> woops, this didn't go out the first time.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Susan Grammer" <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
> To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
>
>
> > >that some parents concentrate too much on manners in
> > > their talented daughters. I want us to raise gifted girls who speak out,
> > > challenge authority, and ask too many questions!! Maybe the world would
> be
> > a
> > > different place if that happened.
> >
> > Funny you should say this as my daughter and I were talking about that
> > yesterday............I told her after kindergarten that it was OK to show
> > who she was in school even if it meant that she didn't always have a
> > "perfect" discipline record.
> >
> > The next fall her first grade teacher could "see" she was gifted
> immediately
> > but her kindergarten teacher had had reservations.....But starting the
> first
> > week of first grade she kept getting marked down (just a little) for not

> > following directions on worksheets...........she won't mind if I share a
> > copy of this assignment with you all cause I've shown the slide to
> hundreds
> > of people already and she now tells the story herself. I'll see if I can
> > attach it to this. If not I"ll write it later.........
> >
> > Remember, she has a twin brother. This was their first reading assignment
> in

> > first grade and I guess they were supposed to copy the sentence that was
> the
> > correct answer........I guess six year olds aren't supposed to make
> > inferences, answer based on experience or use humor in their writing!
> >
> > Susan Grammer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>

> > To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 5:19 PM
> > Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
> >
> >
> > > I so agree. I often tell parents of girls (with apologies to those of
> you

> > > who have read my book) that some parents concentrate too much on manners
> > in

> > > their talented daughters. I want us to raise gifted girls who speak out,
> > > challenge authority, and ask too many questions!! Maybe the world would
> be
> > a
> > > different place if that happened. Thanks for raising that point, Sally
> > > I will sign back on in 20 minutes. Going to grab a drink. me
> > > --

> > > Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
> > > Professor and Department Head
> > > Department of Educational Psychology
> > > University of Connecticut
> > > 2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
> > > Storrs, CT 06269-3007
> > > Ph: 860-486-0618
> > > Fax: 860-486-2900
> > > sally.reis@uconn.edu
> > >

> > > Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information
> > about
> > > our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three
> Summers
> > > Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection,
> > Parenting

> > > Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research
> Center
> > > on the Gifted and Talented.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: Sally_L@comcast.net

> > > > Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > > > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:11:17 +0000
> > > > To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
> > > >
> > > > Hi Susan,
> > > > You wrote:

> > > > With girls, it is often the parents who identify underachievement and
> > seek to
> > > > find the cause. Meanwhile, the schools are telling the parents that
> > their
> > > > daughters are lovely children, well-behaved etc
> > > >

> > > > "well-behaved" caught my attention. I visited Moab, Utah last week and
> > in a
> > > > store filled with clothing and equipment for outdoor adventures -
> white
> > water
> > > > river rafting, hummer safaris, mountain biking, etc there was a
> T-shirt
> > with
> > > > the following saying:
> > > >

> > > > No well-behaved woman will ever make history
> > > >
> > > > I know you were focusing on learning disabilities in gifted girls, but
> > > > acceptable behavior i.e. well-behaved for the female gender is
> > definitely an
> > > > aspect which is a barrier IMHO.

> > > >
> > > > Sally_L
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:27:53 -0400
From: "Kathryn M. Finn" <kitfinn@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <4085A3E9.13774.1112D267@localhost>

When you look at the literature you get what I would call three
groups. Retarded children, often institutionalized, who are
responding to sensory deprivation self-injure. Abused individuals
who have internalized an understanding that pain is part of being
loved self-injure. And there is a group that is very similar in profile
to the kids with eating disorders. That group is responding to
unhealthy perfectionism, I think. The perfectionism may be
imposed from outside, perhaps even often is. But the fact that the
child feels she's letting down her parents' expectations does not
necessarily mean the parents feel that way.

Perfectionism is a gifted trait. It can drive high achievement. It can
also drive imposter syndrome. And it can drive a conviction that a

long list of accomplishments "doesn't count" because some holy
grail of perfection hasn't been reached. Being a good writer doesn't
count because math is a struggle. Being a straight A student
doesn't count because she's not popular. Being a good student and
popular doesn't count if she's not captain of all the school teams.
There is always a reason why whatever they have done just isn't
good enough.

Dealing with kids on line, I can't always tell if the parent is
participating in the impossible demands or if the child is generating
them all herself. I know both are possible. And it all can interact
with biochemical problems that produce emotional instability.

Kit

> Okay, my response, based on having a daughter guilty here, is it could
> also be the result of depression, for it is connected with that, and in
> my daughter's case, Bi-polar, in fact. And bi-polar is matter that does
> have a high incidence of very gifted people, in fact, with this

> condition. It is very complicated. But see, here, there is not abuse, or
> alcoholism or anything else that explains it. Her Grandmother (father's
> side) is bi-polar, and it does have a genetic component. My daughter
> said her self-injury was a way of distracting the pain of the
> depression, actually, that much she understood, and stopped doing it, in
> fact. There is more to this story of course, but I think one has to be
> very careful in assessing the cause of such behavior. As I said, the way
> I see giftedness impacting it is really that bi-polar is so often found
> in people of very high intelligence. It is not required, of course, but
> there is a very high incidence of it, which may account for some of this
> behavior.
>
> Kindest best regards, Lindy
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:52:11 -0400
From: L Dunbar <ldunbar@umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <E35C2300-933E-11D8-BDDD-000A9573CEC8@umich.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553)
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> it (cutting/self-injury) could also be the result of depression

Anecdotal for sure, but in all the cases of cutting/self-injury with
which I am personally familiar, all among gifted women, depression was
definitely part of the picture. When I read the third or fourth hand
accounts, I don't have any trouble finding indications of some level of
depression in the situation.

Also, just an off the cuff speculation, I wonder if cutting is more
'acceptable' than, say, drugs or alcohol, among the perfectionistic
super achieving gifted girls such as Kit was discussing; afterall,

isn't illegal, or 'dangerous', and can often, at least for a while, be
hidden from parents and others.

And one last speculation: it strikes me that cutting is WAY more openly
discussed of late, and I think this might have something to do with
increased incidence and/or reporting. NOT in the usual bad logic of
'giving kids information about sex, drugs, whatever, will lead them to
try it' but rather in the sense of learning of a friend or acquaintance
(or celebrity) who cuts, maybe reading more about it on the internet,
and trying it. Just a thought, NO research! :)

Laura D

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:53:44 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <003701c4274b$dd9a8ba0$7091b041@DGNNTN11>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Thank you Sally. I'll contact them for permission.

Susan Grammer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon

> Susan, that article was published in the California Communicator. Here is
> the reference:
>
> Reis, S. M. (1998). Underachievement for some > others. Communicator: The
Journal of the California Association for the
> Gifted, 29(1), 19-24.
>
> And another more comprehensive one was published in GCQ:
> Reis, S. M., & McCoach, D. B. (2000). The underachievement of gifted

> students: what do we know and where do we go? Gifted Child Quarterly,
> 44(3), 152-170.
>
> I am happy to have you have it reprinted as long as they give permission
as
> I signed copyrights to them, Sally Thanks for your interest.
>
> > From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
> > Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:45:37 -0400
> > To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> > Subject: re: getting reprint permission? Re: Good afternoon
> >
> > Dr. Reis,
> >
> > I was wondering where the article you attached for Ranae was (or will
be)
> > published and whether it would be possible to get permission to reprint
an
> > exerpt of it in the newsletter of the Michigan Alliance for Gifted
Education
> > this summer? Our conference this year focuses on "non-traditional
gifted
> > students" and I would like to follow up with more information on these
kids
> > in the next issue.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Susan Grammer
> > *************************************************

> > Susan F. Grammer
> > Biotechwrite: Biomedical and Science Communications, Education and
Research
> > Kalamazoo, Michigan
> > email: grammers@ix.netcom.com
> > website: http://home.netcom.com/~grammers/biotechwrite/
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
> > To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 4:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: Good afternoon
> >
> >
> >> Oh, these kinds of dilemmas make me sad!! First, celebrate her talents
and
> >> her many gifts and be proud of her--unequivocal love is the best
medicine
> >> for any child. Second, we need to try to fix the school before we fix
> > her.
> >> I am attaching an article that I wrote about underachievement based on
my
> >> experiences with my step son Mark. He is the reason I have done so
much
> >> research on this area. I believe that the school curricula should be
> > fixed
> >> before she is and I think that for some gifted kids, underachievement
is

> >> dropping out with dignity. I hope this helps you. I would support her
> >> choices and help her to understand the consequences of her decisions.
If
> >> she is doing extremely well in some areas and less well in others, she
> > will
> >> still have choices for college, especially with high scores and awards.
In
> >> other words, support her and help her to understand her choices while
> > trying
> >> to change the school culture for bright kids. Good luck, Sally
> >> --
> >> Sally M. Reis, Ph.D.
> >> Professor and Department Head
> >> Department of Educational Psychology
> >> University of Connecticut
> >> 2131 Hillside Road Unit 3007
> >> Storrs, CT 06269-3007
> >> Ph: 860-486-0618
> >> Fax: 860-486-2900
> >> sally.reis@uconn.edu
> >>
> >> Visit our award winning website www.gifted.uconn.edu/ for information
> > about
> >> our summer and academic year programs including Confratute, Three
Summers
> >> Master's Degree Program, On-Line Courses, UConn Mentor Connection,

> > Parenting
> >> Specialist Help, and the latest research from The National Research
Center
> >> on the Gifted and Talented.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Jerry And Ranae Monsen <jrmonsen@yahoo.com>
> >>> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >>> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:24:00 -0700 (PDT)
> >>> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >>> Subject: Re: Good afternoon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu> wrote:
> >>>> Why do some gifted and talented women achieve and gain prominence
or
> >>>> eminence while others who had as much or more potential fail to
achieve
> > the
> >>>> dreams they had as girls?
> >>>
> >>> Hello Mrs. Reis,
> >>> Let me add my Thanks for your time and willingness to do this
> > conference. I
> >>> was looking forward to your information because of our two wonderful
> >>> daughters.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Our 11yr old is in a full time GT program and doing quite well at the
> > moment,

> >>> it is the other daughter that our concern is about, currently. Our 14
> > year
> >>> old
> >>> is extremely gifted with writing skills, but her lack of organization
> > skills
> >>> is
> >>> what conserns us at the moment. She will be awarded first place for
our
> > state
> >>> in a national writting contest she entered this saturday, but we fear
> > she will
> >>> have a hard time getting into anything but a community college because
> > of her
> >>> grades if her trend toward underachievement continues. She wants to
be
> > a
> >>> author of fantasy novels/childrens literature etc. Her poetry is so
> > deep and
> >>> thought provoking, she is really amazing. She attends a full time
> > middle
> >>> school gifted and talented program, and Aces the tests, and core
things
> > that
> >>> make up the subject of the curriculum, but has a difficult time doing
> > all of
> >>> the excuse me-busy work the teachers require of the kids. I
understand
> > and

> >>> agree the busy work is sometimes rediculas, but it is this 'busy work'
> > that is
> >>> dragging her grades in the gutter. I wish that along with the
> > transcripts we
> >>> could forward info on what the grades were generated from.
> >>>
> >>> I guess my question is this, how do we support her thrilling ability
to
> > create
> >>> while still having to 'conform' to the schools grading system, so she
> > will be
> >>> able to keep her dreams and ability alive and be able to achieve her
> > goals?
> >>>
> >>> Thank You,
> >>> Ranae
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________
> >>> Do you Yahoo!?
> >>> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25?
> >>> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:59:44 -0400
From: Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <005801c4274c$b2ea8c10$4f02a8c0@Cunningham>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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"What I see is children under enormous pressure, children who
literally think that perfection is the minimum standard. Children who
face the loss of all social life, all electronics, and their bedroom
door for the sin of inadequate grades or talking back. And their
definition of inadequate grades is often in the B plus range."

Are you implying that parents are "pushing" their daughters to this
behavior? Or that consequences (loss of privileges) for poor grades is the
cause? Should we instead stand by and watch our gifted girls underachieve?
If they are capable of A's, aren't we wrong to cheerfully accept B's? Why

shouldn't a child have consequences for talking back? Are you saying we
(parents) should be more permissive? I guess what I am asking is: When
gifted children are younger, we (parents) ask the schools to provide a more
challenging and stimulating curriculum to encourage our children to reach
their potential (Is it a Cheetah?) and to attempt to prevent the
underachievement so prevalent in gifted adolescents but when they are older
it becomes acceptable for the children to only apply themselves if they feel
like it with no consequence (basically underachieve)?

I am not disputing that cutting/self injury is a problem for some girls,
specifically those with perfectionist traits, just that the parents are to
blame for setting limits and restricting privileges when certain goals are
not met or that parents are the source of this enormous pressure...my
daughter puts that on herself and try as I might, she won't rest until it is
perfect.

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:04:24 -0700
From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
Subject: HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <4085E4B8.2080801@thegoodwins.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Thanks! Well, since you asked... The 20,000 number depends very much on
how you define "homeschoolers," and it's hard to get anything like an
accurate count. I can tell you that there are over 13,000 filers of
private school affidavits in the state, but of course that includes
'regular' private schools in addition to those of us who have formed
private schools in our home. In addition to that, there are some unknown
number of folks who homeschool through public school independent study
programs and through charter schools, and plenty of others who simply go
"underground."

As far as membership, the HomeSchool Association of California (HSC

www.hsc.org) has approximately 800 members; I don't know how large the
membership is for other the secular state association, California
Homeschool Network (CHN). Of course, there are those who homeschool
through religious programs, as well, or organizations such as the
California Home Educators Association (CHEA).

What I can tell you is that gifted and special needs kids appear to be
the fastest growing segment of the homeschooling population in
California, and I bet you all can guess why... To the best of my
knowledge, HSC is the only statewide organization which actively
supports those groups, through advisers, conference speakers, and --
soon, I hope! -- through the expansion of our website to include
resources specific to families of gifted homeschoolers, and hopefully
some way for CA homeschoolers to make connections with each other. I
welcome ideas or suggestions from anyone who wants to email me offlist
about this at <corin @ thegoodwins.com> <--- (remove spaces)

I was also going to ask you, Sally, who your friend is and if you are in
California, and some other stuff, nothing urgent! Thanks for doing this
conference -- I now return you all to your regularly scheduled topic :-p

Corin

%-------------------------------------------
Sally M. Reis wrote:

>Not at all. I hope my numbers are accurate. I learned them from a friend
>of mine who mentioned how effective your association has been!! If these are
>not accurate, please feel free to correct me on list. Sally
>
>
>
>>From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
>>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:13:51 -0700
>>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>>Subject: Re: Good afternoon
>>
>>Sally M. Reis wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>That is true. There are over 20,000 members of the home schooling
>>>association in California alone and the reasons that most folks home school
>>>is either religious or academic. Of course, this option does not work for
>>>everyone, Sally
>>>
>>>

>>>
>>>
>>Hi, Sally -- Would you mind if I contact you offlist about this?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>Corin Goodwin <corin @ thegoodwins.com> <-- remove spaces
>>HomeSchool Association of California
>>Co-chair, Legislative Committee
>>Adviser, Gifted/Special Needs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:08:16 -0500
From: "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Reis: Empowering gifted girls and women
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <004401c4274d$e4638930$bfaae144@nngco.mehcpipelines.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Sally_L wrote:>
> I guess for me if girls feel like they can have it all then why would they
feel
> that there is nothing good about being a girl?
>
The answer to this perceived contradiction for me is that a man I could have
it all much easier than a woman. As an engineer back when women dressed as
miniature men, but in skirts - I had to work harder than my male
counterparts to be taken seriously as a peer - at least that was my
perception and the message I was hearing from society at the time. Also, as
a man, I would not have to make major choices like how my career might be
affected by marriage or children - it was just assumed that men could do it

all easily. To me, there was always something 'fishy' about the 'you can do
it all' message that was so prevalent at the time.

Lisa C.
mailto:ljchoquette@cox.net

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:19:46 -0700
From: Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <009101c4274f$7fc87600$1d361418@elisex5g0bp265>
MIME-version: 1.0
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> Hmmm, there was information about co-educational classes
> where two men out of 25 or 30 women - dominated the discussions in the
class.
> The attitude of the women reflected when asked about their behavior I
think
> indicated that they recognized the needs of the men to "talk"
> and it was fine with them "not" to talk that much during class and to be
publically
> active in their participation.

I was reminded of this by, of all things, a comment made by Donald Trump
("The Apprentice" is my guilty pleasure ;-) ) on his TV show recently. He
was completely stumped by the fact that when the women contestants formed a
separate women's only team, they beat the men hands-down in every

competition, yet when the very same men and women were put together in mixed
gender teams, the women faded into the background and stopped excelling. He
stopped short of drawing conclusions, but found it dramatic and perplexing
enough to comment on. For those of you not in the US, "The Apprentice" is a
TV "reality show" based on the premise of competition in quasi-business
tasks with the winner winning a real position running one of Donald Trump's
businesses.

I saw this in action when I attended an all-women's college (Wellesley) back
in the 80s. The (mostly gifted) women students were highly assertive and
confident and filled all the leadership positions, of course. However, there
was a peculiar change that came over the women and the professors when the
occasional cross-registered male student from MIT enrolled in a class to
fulfill their humanities requirements with a "gut" class (were they
surprised! LOL!). What I consistently noticed -- and actually started

keeping tallies of as an informal experiment -- was that not only did the
women participate dramatically less in class discussions when male students
attended, but significantly to my mind, the professor called on the 1-2 men
disproportionately. Even the few women who continued to attempt to
participate in discussions were denied much opportunity to do so. This was
discouraging and demoralizing and further reduced their participation. This
resulted in complete domination of class discussions by the male students.
Since the men had basically zero background or interest in the humanities,
this significantly lowered the level of intellectual discourse in the
classes.

I had hoped this dynamic was a thing of the past, but apparently it is not.

Elise

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:14:07 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <005301c4274e$b632a040$7091b041@DGNNTN11>
MIME-version: 1.0
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>Why should we be tied to measuring achievement or unachievement of =
women in the context of >a male-oriented (and male-instituted) value =
system? Isn't it like trying to measure liquid >volume with a =
straight-edged ruler? =20
>-julie =20

Julie,

Wonderful question and beautiful analogy. =20

I talked to my two nine year olds about which of the women they know are =
"successful" in their minds and there really didn't seem to be any link =

between their judgement and whether they knew the woman had or didn't =
have a high profile career. My daughter commented on the differences =
they each have made in people's lives -- my son was pretty quiet -- =
probably trying to figure out what I wanted to hear.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2737.800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>>Why should we be tied to measuring achievement or unachievement =
of=20
women in the context of >a male-oriented (and male-instituted) value=20
system?  Isn't it like trying to measure liquid =
>volume with a=20
straight-edged ruler?  </DIV>
<DIV>>-julie  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Julie,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wonderful question and beautiful =
analogy. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I talked to my two nine year olds about =
which of=20
the women they know are "successful" in their minds and there =
really didn't=20
seem to be any link between their judgement and whether they knew the =
woman had=20
or didn't have a high profile career.  My daughter commented =
on the=20
differences they each have made in people's lives -- my son was pretty =
quiet --=20
probably trying to figure out what I wanted to =
hear.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:19:25 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <005901c4274f$73aace90$7091b041@DGNNTN11>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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> consider and refute or support which is this: my mother has always said,
> "You can have it all, just not all at the same time."

Not that I'm an expert, but I agree with your mom.

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:23:46 -0500
From: "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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>
> I just can't sit by and not say anything about the idea so many people in
this
> world have about how unimportant the role of a Woman/Mother is!

Ranae et al -

The current 'achievement' model still rewards money and prestige, neither of
which are found in being a mother and homemaker. We need an alternate
achievement model for that to happen, I think.

I did not mean to imply that I felt that being a SAHM is not important.
I've always felt children need full-time support. When I was younger and
focused on my career, I felt I could pay to provide that support since I
really did not have the day-to-day patientce to be a SAHM. I was driven,

focused, and loved my career, and had worked hard for it.

Then life threw me a curveball - and I found myself needed at home full-time
(PG/LD child who crashed in school). It wasn't what I had planned, but it's
where my family needs me to be. I know I am having a bigger impact overall
right now as a SAHM than I was in my very narrow area of expertise at work.
I understand that my work here is very important. I think every household
needs someone who's focused on keeping the family running - and children
need to feel loved and supported - and some children really do need that
full-time. This person doesn't necessarily need to be mom, but is more
traditionally. My brother was a SAHD for years before his son started
school. Even with a compliant gifted child, he did not find it an easy
job - and I don't either. I admire parents who are able to give of
themselves for their families, and postpone their own goals. I still hope

to get back to some other goals, but I've been away from full-time work now
for almost 8 years, and I'm not sure I would go back now full-time. It's
been an amazing transformation - a very growing, changing experience for me.

Lisa C.

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:32:01 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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> And the type of job also matters. It would
> much harder to find a job doing science in a lab than it was for me to
find
> more of a science based paper pushing job.
>
> Michelle

As did Michelle, I converted my love of science and my desire to be flexible
into the paper trade.......putting science on paper (or more often sending
it into cyberspace). Since I am not good with quick turnarounds and short
deadlines, I have chosen so far to really pick and choose assignments when
they fit. I have become spoiled though, and will have to get some of that
self-discipline back soon.

Susan

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 03:39:20 +0000
From: joshshaine@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040339.13071.4085ECE8000A3D110000330F2200734076FF9A91969E978C978C90@comca
st.net>

Rebecca asked:
"Are you implying that parents are "pushing" their daughters to this
> behavior?"

As I understand it, she said that that is ONE circumstance. That it is a
potentially contributing factor.

She also asked:
"Should we instead stand by and watch our gifted girls underachieve?"

I don't believe that the choices are restricted to watching them underachieve or
behavior modification. Nor, from what I have seen, is the behavior mod
technique necessarily pproducing the benefits that some of the parents who use
it seek. As with so many other things, the kids vary - and what works with one
may well not work with the next.

The 'consequences' can be contributors.

Or, as Rebecca wrote, and Kit also noted, "my daughter puts that on herself and
try as I might, she won't rest until it is perfect." Perfectionism can come
from both sides or from either side.

Rebecca also asked demands for "a more challenging and stimulating curriculum
... to attempt to prevent the underachievement so prevalent in gifted
adolescents but when they are older it becomes acceptable for the children to
only apply themselves if they feel like it with no consequence (basically
underachieve)?"

I didn't read anywhere that Kit said or even implied that. But I have a few
responses to that. If we do not, in fact, succeed in getting the schools to do
that, nor to help the student to self-direct/self-motivate, then when they enter
adolescence, if they are ill-prepared to perform then. They frequently lack the
skills to handle difficult work, even when it is presented.

And while some teens may 'only perform when they feel like it' that is hardly
the case with all of them - or possibly most. It takes a good while for the
desire please those they love to fade, contrary to what many parents seem to
think.

Parents are a source. Schools are a source. Society is a source. And the kids
themselves are a source.

I don't have a solution. I just know that cutting is a problem - or that it is
a symptom of a problem - or both.

Josh Shaine

> "What I see is children under enormous pressure, children who
> literally think that perfection is the minimum standard. Children who
> face the loss of all social life, all electronics, and their bedroom
> door for the sin of inadequate grades or talking back. And their
> definition of inadequate grades is often in the B plus range."
>
> Are you implying that parents are "pushing" their daughters to this
> behavior? Or that consequences (loss of privileges) for poor grades is the
> cause? Should we instead stand by and watch our gifted girls underachieve?
> If they are capable of A's, aren't we wrong to cheerfully accept B's? Why
> shouldn't a child have consequences for talking back? Are you saying we
> (parents) should be more permissive? I guess what I am asking is: When
> gifted children are younger, we (parents) ask the schools to provide a more
> challenging and stimulating curriculum to encourage our children to reach
> their potential (Is it a Cheetah?) and to attempt to prevent the

> underachievement so prevalent in gifted adolescents but when they are older
> it becomes acceptable for the children to only apply themselves if they feel
> like it with no consequence (basically underachieve)?
>
> I am not disputing that cutting/self injury is a problem for some girls,
> specifically those with perfectionist traits, just that the parents are to
> blame for setting limits and restricting privileges when certain goals are
> not met or that parents are the source of this enormous pressure...my

> daughter puts that on herself and try as I might, she won't rest until it is
> perfect.
>
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:48:32 -0400
From: Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <006801c42753$84067100$0a0110ac@Primary>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Our school system's intervention specialists (psychologists specializing in
areas such as alcohol/drugs/cutting/suicide/etc. in adolescents) have given
talks at our middle school on this topic - more than once - as part of
various presentations to parents.

Apparantly, there is much collected research on this topic - they are very
familiar with the condition, but I had not heard of it before their
presentations.

shallow cuts, made repeatedly, with insignificant blood loss. However,
cutting indicates a serious emotional problem which the child attempts to
"fix" with the the chemical release. They said, cutting is not an attention
getting device, it is usually done in private, on areas of the body usually
not visable - upper thighs for example - for the sole purpose of the calming
effect of the chemical release.

Hope this helps

Chipper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah-jane Romano" <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury

> smaller, less. Girls are victim to the vampire of skinny, and no girl
feels
> it more keenly than a really smart, really intuitive young woman.
>
> Others?
>
> SJ
>
>
> >From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
> >Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
> >Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:34 -0400
> >
> >Thank you so much for doing this, Sally!
> >
> >I work with gifted adolescents, and increasingly, I am being told by them
> >of
> >their 'need' to self-injure. These are not suicidal ideations. In some
> >cases, they report a desire to punish, but for others, it seems to be for
> >stimulation or sensation - still others claim to use it to distract from
> >emotional pain.
> >
> >How can a counselor, a teacher, or a parent respond? And why is it
> >principally the gifted girls doing this (though some gifted boys) and not
> >the general population?
> >
> >Josh Shaine
> >
>

> _________________________________________________________________
> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:50:16 -0400
From: Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <007001c42753$c1f2f330$0a0110ac@Primary>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Oh, and one more thing, the intervention specialists talk as if it is also a
risk with male adolescents - not just females.

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:48:41 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Reis: Empowering gifted girls and women
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <007b01c42753$8a2c1490$7091b041@DGNNTN11>
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>
> There was a prior post indicating that without her husband that she would
not
> have achieved to the level she is - sorry can't remember your name.
>
That was me. My parents certainly didn't mean any harm We were always told
we could do anything we wanted to do, but for some reason I always felt
there was some kind of "ceiling". I don't remember ever taking a risk that
I wouldn't succeed. My husband thought it was ridiculous that I didn't feel
capable of going into science, and then when I wanted out of the laboratory
research end of it when the kids were two, it was his consulting work in
addition to his salary that allowed me to leave and spend time learning my

way around the science writing community.

>
> It sure would be fun to have a panel of gifted teens of both genders
> addressing this issue.

I think it would be GREAT. I listened to a panel of teens discussing
medical ethics on the Howard Hughes Medical Institute 2004 Holiday Lectures
DVD and was VERY impressed at their level of thought and also very well
entertained.....

Susan Grammer

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:50:40 -0400
From: "Lindy McD. & Dick F." <rfritts@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <4085EF90.2010605@comcast.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Kathryn M. Finn wrote:

>Perfectionism is a gifted trait. It can drive high achievement. It can
>also drive imposter syndrome. And it can drive a conviction that a
>long list of accomplishments "doesn't count" because some holy
>grail of perfection hasn't been reached. Being a good writer doesn't
>count because math is a struggle. Being a straight A student
>doesn't count because she's not popular. Being a good student and
>popular doesn't count if she's not captain of all the school teams.
>There is always a reason why whatever they have done just isn't
>good enough.
>
>Dealing with kids on line, I can't always tell if the parent is

>participating in the impossible demands or if the child is generating
>them all herself. I know both are possible. And it all can interact
>with biochemical problems that produce emotional instability.
>
>
An excellent post, Kit, indeed. Yes, certainly perfectionism is there
with the PG population certainly. And it is driven by the person
themselves, rather than from without. And as Laura said, this can indeed
be hidden from the parents, for we didn't know until she admitted same
to me in one of her lucid moments. It is just not a simple issue with
simple answers. There are lots of complicating factors that go into this.

Ah, women. We are socialized differently than men. I think we do speak a
different language, and I think we ARE different from men. (Kinda glad
we are, actually.) But traits such as perfectionism, intelligence and
even Dabrowski's OE's affect both sexes. The results can be quite
different though. And I suspect it does start early with girls. It was

jr. high, I believe when I made a conscious choice: I figured I was not
pretty (I was, but didn't know it) but I did have brains, so that was
the asset I would develop and hold to as my source of identity. It was a
choice that served me well, even if it did hit a few walls now and
again. I wish all our girls could make that choice. Won't make life
easier, but will give them a more true sense of identity.

Kindest best regards, Lindy

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:50:48 -0400
From: Misty Richmond <yahoo@mipper.com>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAB67D8.4C9D%yahoo@mipper.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Just to add my $0.02 -

I think that one must look at social pressures as well as family and
personal. For example, anger. Generally speaking it is more acceptable for
males to express anger, while females who do so can be labeled with very
negative terms. I think that cutting may be a way to express the anger that
is not allowed to be expressed in other ways (either verbally or
physically).

I am also aware of a sub-culture of young people who promote cutting (along
with other forms of self destructive behavior) on the internet and in their
music. It seems that extreme body piercing/tattooing and cutting are
perhaps different sides of the same coin - a sort of painful right of

passage if you will, that is becoming more popular it seems. It is almost
the "cool" thing to do, at least in some groups.

But it does seem to me that cutting is very different from suicidal
behavior. People who want to kill themselves usually want to stop the pain,
not inflict more. But of course, there will be people who like to cut and
are suicidal.

And none of this really addresses why it might be more common in gifted
young ladies.

Misty
--
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a
fool forever.
- Chinese proverb

> From: JDCWilker@aol.com
> Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:37:26 -0400 (EDT)
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>
> In a message dated 4/20/2004 7:08:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> kitfinn@cox.net writes:
>> I hear parents worry deeply about depression.
>> They're seeing self-injury as well. It's out there and it's real. And it's

>> about more than body image.
>>
>> Kit Finn
>
> Kit - you are right ... its one way of releasing tension and depression ...
> or at least it feels that way to some. For the girl I knew, it was not at all
> body image but tension from PG isolation and trying to release it, somehow.
> Just one data point. You have many.
>
> Julie
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:02:09 -0400
From: Keri Guilbault <kguilbault@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200404210401.i3L41UuI016691@ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi Chipper,

This sounds like the cases in my schools. (I work with the intervention
"Prevention" specialists here but am not a counselor- just teacher of the
gifted.)Your description is accurate for the incidences that we are seeing
in my county and the purpose for the actions.

These girls could be seeking the high feeling from cutting because of
depression, too.

Keri Guilbault
Gifted Children Coordiantor
Central Florida Mensa
http://www.youngmensa.org

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
Behalf Of Mitford
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:49 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu

Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury

Apparantly, there is much collected research on this topic - they are very
familiar with the condition, but I had not heard of it before their
presentations.

According to these psychologists, cutting is done because it releases
endorphins and other chemicals which make the kids feel better. They state
that the actual cutting is of little risk - these are tiny razor blade
shallow cuts, made repeatedly, with insignificant blood loss. However,
cutting indicates a serious emotional problem which the child attempts to
"fix" with the the chemical release. They said, cutting is not an attention
getting device, it is usually done in private, on areas of the body usually

not visable - upper thighs for example - for the sole purpose of the calming
effect of the chemical release.

Hope this helps

Chipper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah-jane Romano" <plainsarahjane@hotmail.com>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury

> Hello, I hope it is appropriate to make a comment though you asked
Sally...
>
> I am a counselor and teacher of pre-ad/adolescent girls and my experience
> (not any research I have done, mind you!) with cutting suggests that most
> often girls cut from a desire to shave down themselves, that is, make
> smaller, less. Girls are victim to the vampire of skinny, and no girl
feels
> it more keenly than a really smart, really intuitive young woman.
>
> Others?
>
> SJ
>
>
> >From: Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
> >Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >Subject: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury

> >Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:48:34 -0400
> >
> >Thank you so much for doing this, Sally!
> >
> >I work with gifted adolescents, and increasingly, I am being told by them
> >of
> >their 'need' to self-injure. These are not suicidal ideations. In some
> >cases, they report a desire to punish, but for others, it seems to be for
> >stimulation or sensation - still others claim to use it to distract from
> >emotional pain.
> >
> >How can a counselor, a teacher, or a parent respond? And why is it
> >principally the gifted girls doing this (though some gifted boys) and not
> >the general population?
> >
> >Josh Shaine
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeR
> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:21:45 -0400
From: Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Finding a balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <00cf01c42758$28327fe0$0a0110ac@Primary>
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I think it important that we realize men do NOT have it all. While we =
women often wish we had not had to make the difficult choice between =
raising our children and fulfilling our career aspirations - men, often =
wish, they HAD realized the decisions they were making along the way. =20

In too many cases, the men concentrated on their careers while their =
wives concentrated on the children. And, many women have serious =
regrets about the loss of their career. I really miss my career and =

wish I could have found a way to have both - I couldn't. But, having =
worked in a very demanding profession, with many of these "high profile" =
men -I know that they too have serious regrets. They regret that while =
they have attained a "recognition" in their choice of careers, they do =
not have a "connection" with their children. Often, their children grew =
up while they were busy traveling and/or working long hours pursuing =
their careers. And, "suddenly" they realize their children are leaving =
home and that it is too late to go back and do it over again.

My husband and I are making a serious effort to discuss with our son, =
not only the educational requirements of various career options but =
also the impact various choices will have on lifestyles. =20

But can youth ever really understand? I know we didn't.

Chipper

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Susan Grammer=20
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:14 PM

Subject: Re: Finding a balance

Julie,

Wonderful question and beautiful analogy. =20

I talked to my two nine year olds about which of the women they know =
are "successful" in their minds and there really didn't seem to be any =
link between their judgement and whether they knew the woman had or =
didn't have a high profile career. My daughter commented on the =
differences they each have made in people's lives -- my son was pretty =
quiet -- probably trying to figure out what I wanted to hear.

------=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C42736.A10B8320
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think it important that we realize =
men=20
do NOT have it all.  While we women often wish we had not had =
to make=20
the difficult choice between raising our children and fulfilling =
our career=20
aspirations - men, often wish, they HAD realized the decisions they =
were=20
making along the way.  </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In too many cases, the =
men concentrated on=20
their careers while their wives concentrated on the =
children.   And,=20
many women have serious regrets about the loss of their career.  I =
really=20
miss my career and wish I could have found a way to have both - I=20

couldn't.  But, </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>having =
worked in a very=20
demanding profession, with many of these "high profile" men -I know =

that they too have serious regrets.  They regret =
that while they=20
have attained a "recognition" in their choice of careers, they do =
not have=20
a "connection" with their children.  Often, their children =
grew up=20
while they were busy traveling and/or working long hours pursuing =
their=20
careers.  And, "suddenly" they realize their children are leaving =
home=20
and that it is too late to go back and do it over =
again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My husband and I are making a serious =
effort=20
to discuss with our son, not only the educational requirements=20
of  various career options but also the impact various choices =
will=20
have on lifestyles.  </FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But can youth ever really =
understand?  I=20
know we didn't.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Chipper</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dgrammers@ix.netcom.com =
href=3D"mailto:grammers@ix.netcom.com">Susan=20
Grammer</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DOURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu=20
href=3D"mailto:OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu">OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu</A> </DIV>

<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 20, 2004 =
11:14=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Finding a =
balance</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>>Why should we be tied to measuring achievement or =
unachievement of=20
women in the context of >a male-oriented (and male-instituted) =
value=20
system?  Isn't it like trying to measure liquid =
>volume with a=20
straight-edged ruler?  </DIV>
<DIV>>-julie  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Julie,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wonderful question and beautiful =
analogy. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I talked to my two nine year olds =
about which of=20
the women they know are "successful" in their minds and there =
really=20

didn't seem to be any link between their judgement and whether they =
knew the=20
woman had or didn't have a high profile career.  My daughter =

commented on the differences they each have made in people's lives -- =
my son=20
was pretty quiet -- probably trying to figure out what I wanted to=20
hear.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 05:23:23 +0100 (BST)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel=20G.?=" <ratesjul@yahoo.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040421042323.66290.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com>
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I "work" with some of the same group mentioned by Kit
and Josh, albeit closer in some ways (I'm not so much
of a 'scary adult figure') and further apart in others
(I'm halfway around the world from most them). I've
had cases where some of them apologise to ME because
they "slipped" and "had" to cut. I've seen references
to instances where a thread about "they're cutting
choir at my school" has had them have to think REALLY
hard to keep from cutting.

If they're capable of A's normally, and are battling
such things as depression and lack of concentration,
bringing home B+s isn't that bad. I've seen some of

these girls berate themselves because they slipped
from an A+ down to an A, even with only a one point
difference.

I've seen them explain a concept to me over an IM
window, and then become unable to move around the
words a little to turn their knowledge of a concept
into an Essay that would satisfy an English Teacher.
I've seen them ask how they're expected to concentrate
on a reading for class when they can't read a book
they've been waiting for for a month. If they're
bringing home B+s when every word is like a drop of
blood - that should hardly be termed inadequate.

And if pushing them to get As is going to sink them
further into depression because they see themselves as
even more inadequate when they feel that they can't do
it - who does that help? It also seems to me that
there's a far cry between B+s and failing, though I'm
unsure of what a failing grade constitutes - and the
underachievers we're most worried about are those who

fail when they could attain A+ grades, isn't it?

It seems to me that, if a parent is going to set
restrictions for bad behaviour/bad grades, shouldn't
they also reward the good, to help the child strive
for them? If the reaction to a C is "work harder" and
the reaction to an A is being ignored - where does
that lead to?

I'm not a parent. I'm also not trying to place the
blame at the parent's end of things.

Rachel.

<<"What I see is children under enormous pressure,
children who literally think that perfection is the
minimum standard. Children who face the loss of all
social life, all electronics, and their bedroom
door for the sin of inadequate grades or talking back.
And their definition of inadequate grades is often in
the B plus range.">>

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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:23:36 +0000
From: joshshaine@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040423.29097.4085F747000E26D8000071A92200735834FF9A91969E978C978C90@comca
st.net>

Thank you for the reminder, Lindy -

I know that Elizabeth Mika talks about OE's and cutting, and that Dabrowski
wrote an article on Self-mutilation in 1939!

Chipper's comment jibes with some of what I read - but not with what I hear from
all of the kids, only some. And there are boys who do, though the only ones I
(personally) know of at all are gifted.

And yes, there are certainly folks who do it because their friends are doing it.
*shakes head* It does seem to be addicitive, for many of the kids.

Josh Shaine
> Kathryn M. Finn wrote:
>
> >Perfectionism is a gifted trait. It can drive high achievement. It can
> >also drive imposter syndrome. And it can drive a conviction that a
> >long list of accomplishments "doesn't count" because some holy
> >grail of perfection hasn't been reached. Being a good writer doesn't
> >count because math is a struggle. Being a straight A student
> >doesn't count because she's not popular. Being a good student and
> >popular doesn't count if she's not captain of all the school teams.
> >There is always a reason why whatever they have done just isn't
> >good enough.
> >
> >Dealing with kids on line, I can't always tell if the parent is
> >participating in the impossible demands or if the child is generating
> >them all herself. I know both are possible. And it all can interact
> >with biochemical problems that produce emotional instability.
> >
> >
> An excellent post, Kit, indeed. Yes, certainly perfectionism is there
> with the PG population certainly. And it is driven by the person

> themselves, rather than from without. And as Laura said, this can indeed

> be hidden from the parents, for we didn't know until she admitted same
> to me in one of her lucid moments. It is just not a simple issue with
> simple answers. There are lots of complicating factors that go into this.
>
> Ah, women. We are socialized differently than men. I think we do speak a
> different language, and I think we ARE different from men. (Kinda glad
> we are, actually.) But traits such as perfectionism, intelligence and
> even Dabrowski's OE's affect both sexes. The results can be quite
> different though. And I suspect it does start early with girls. It was
> jr. high, I believe when I made a conscious choice: I figured I was not
> pretty (I was, but didn't know it) but I did have brains, so that was
> the asset I would develop and hold to as my source of identity. It was a
> choice that served me well, even if it did hit a few walls now and
> again. I wish all our girls could make that choice. Won't make life

> easier, but will give them a more true sense of identity.
>
> Kindest best regards, Lindy
>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:22:45 -0400
From: Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: compare & contrast was Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted
girls
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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----- Original Message -----
From: <Sally_L@comcast.net>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: compare & contrast was Undiagnosed learning disabilities in
gifted girls

> Susan,
> Your child's responses on her assignment were so endearing. I loved it!
This
> reminds me of my
> son's "most embarrassing story his mom tell's about his childhood" LOL
maybe I
> will share that later in this post.
>
> I would like to tie your daughter's comments on her assignment with the
chapter
> Dr. Reis wrote about the study where girls were
> asked "What is the best thing about being a girl" compared to boys being

asked
> "what is the best thing about being a boy" question. It is on page 56
>
> After I read the part about the girls' answers, I then asked my 15 year
old
> son, what his answer would be to - "What is the best thing about being a
boy?".
> (We were on vacation sitting by a pool trying not to get sunburned LOL but
> totally relaxing:) Ofcourse he rolled his eyes at me.) He
> tried to ignore me, so I rephrased the question, okay what do you think
other
> boys would answer. He came up with this - Other boys, whether they are 2
> years old or 92 years old and every age inbetween would answer - if they
were
> being truthful - The best thing being a boy is to being able to pee
standing up.

Sally L.....This is SO funny because at the age of 2 (just before our first
major crisis regarding age-in-grade grouping -- can't move a 23 month old to
the preschool room even if developmentally a 36 months old because of
staff:child ratios) my son's daycare teachers used to great me in stitches

because he was the only boy in the class who INSISTED on peeing standing up.
The five potties were all lined up with little boys sitting on them, but
mine had to stand!

Funny though, his twin sister (actually, she might get upset with me over
this one but I'll take the chance) at the age of 2.5-3 managed to do just as
good a job as he did creating designs on the fence in the back yard from two
feet away! Of course she is a little more talented at drawing than he is,
so it's no surprise that she could make more elaborate designs..........

Oh, tonight this nine year old asked me "why do I have to be so different?
Why can't I be like everyone else?" Much to my relief, it wasn't her love
of analyzing the world she was refering to, it was her eating habits (or
lack thereof). Wheew.......

> He asked what were the answers given in the book - I read to him - "not
being a
> girl" and "we can do more things". He claimed that his answer matched the
polite

> male answer given to the female - (non-mom) adult asking the question -
not
> being a girl.
>
> I think this ties into your 6 years old daughter's very honest response as
asked
> on her first grade assignment - "Scott has a penuus."

It was definitely an honest response, but I suspect (knowing her as I do,
even though she told me at 3 that I could NOT know how she felt because I
was NOT in her brain!) that it was meant to have a little bit of "shock
value".

OK, I'm falling asleep and typing multiple lines of Xs into these messages.
Have to go take a nap......

Susan G.

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:24:42 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040424.6494.4085F78A0007C5540000195E2200761438FF91908693D18693939E@comcas
t.net>

Chipper wrote:

SNIP
> According to these psychologists, cutting is done because it releases
> endorphins and other chemicals which make the kids feel better.
SNIP
- for the sole purpose of the calming
> effect of the chemical release.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Chipper

I am just thinking how the body actually releases endorphins and
I haven't a clue as to
what the other "chemicals" might be in the body when cutting
to provide a calming effect.

Any medical doctors available to explain this chemical reaction more clearly?

For example, I know I am cutting a watermelon - obviously the intention is
to cut the watermelon, but when I accidentally have cut a finger instead of
the melon - I first do not feel anything - it takes a while before what my
eyes see - blood - actually registers the actual feeling - Oops I cut myself.
Then physically I don't feel anything close to "calming"
Yes, adrenalin, but that isn't calming.

Okay there a lot of differences between accidentally cutting onself and on
purpose
cutting onself, but the nerves in the skin and the chemicals produced
by the cutting action - producing a emotional reaction which is very different
is really interesting depending upon intention or no intention.

So many things to consider.

Sally_L

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:35:08 +0800
From: Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
Subject: Re: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BCAC1AFC.1AF03%tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
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on 21/4/04 11:23 AM, Lisa C. at ljchoquette@cox.net wrote:

> I still hope
> to get back to some other goals, but I've been away from full-time work now
> for almost 8 years, and I'm not sure I would go back now full-time. It's
> been an amazing transformation - a very growing, changing experience for me.
>
> Lisa C.

Ditto here Lisa. I simply couldn't work full time again, I value my time too
much to sell so much of it (including the flow on impacts of working full
time like having little or no 'self' time). I prefer to give my spare time
to other pursuits such as writing, activism and participating on e-lists.
The problem of course is money, and we are perpetually monetarily poor, but

rich in the things we have learnt matter most -- family, friendships, the
beauty around us.

I am very concerned at the trend for professional women not to have
families, or to delay until too late and fertility becomes an issue. This is
likely to distort the gene pool quite considerably. Will there be a 'dumbing
down' in society, where mediocrity becomes the norm? I often get the feeling
that we are already suffering from this syndrome.

Additionally, later in life will those women suffer loneliness and regret?
After retirement, in many instances a career is no longer relevant except as
a memory. What is going to take its place in the absence of a family? I
think young women are being 'conned' -- convinced that families need to be
sacrificed for material and self gain, which suits the needs of the
capitalist market system nicely. They are being 'masculinised'
institutionally to seek the same goals as men, to be 'equal' rather than

seeking equitable outcomes that allow for women to develop themselves as
women (whatever that is, as it differs from woman to woman, society to
society, culture to culture). The key here is real choice, not pseudo or
forced choice.

And as many women have noted in this discussion, the value to them of having
their children has been significant, in many cases life changing and leading
to higher levels of personal fulfilment and self-actualisation. While
mothering is kept at such a low social status, rather than being elevated as
possibly the most important job within a community (the value of nurturing a
happy and healthy future generation, which we are now experiencing as the
antithesis as more children are depressed and self-harming and people
express disatisfaction with their lives), young women will turn their backs
on this as a real choice in their lives.

In our Western societies (and many others too) women and their

values/endeavours/mothering are not valued proportionately to the effort
that they put into these domains, and the value that women themselves place
on the things that matter to them most is very often ridiculed as 'soft' or
undermined economically and intellectually. One way of making change is for
women to learn about the invisible pressures and barriers that seek to
undermine their positions and values, and to actively challenge them on all
fronts.

In answer to the question of 'having it all', I would ask 'what exactly IS
having it all'? Too many, both male and female, 'have it all' and are still
depressed and searching for meaning. Clive Hamilton from the Australia
Insitute (a left wing think tank http://www.tai.org.au/) did some
significant research into the phenomenon of 'downshifting', which is far
more prevalent than it appears. His book 'Growth Fetish' (which I have yet
to read) addresses this issue.

As many as 30% of the population are sacrificing salaries and materialism

for a better life. In searching for meaning, the answer has been to withdraw
from materialism and self gain. This of course is a significant challenge to
the market system and hence the penalties for doing this become greater and
greater -- for example the downgrading or privatisation of State run
services such that only users who can pay can get basic services essential
to human existence (eg privatisation of water, electricity, security, health
care, housing prices escalating with higher interest rates etc.) Yet
downshifting continues to be an emerging trend in modern society as more and
more people search for greater self-fulfilment which is eluding them in
their careers, and greater dissatisfaction with life is not assuaged by
increasing materialism.

Sorry if this is a bit of a tangent, but worthwhile thinking about as we
seek to council girls and young women on achievement and development, and
nurture them to fulfil their potential in ways that will lead to

self-actualisation and fulfilment as well as contributing to society and
community.

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:36:26 -0400
From: Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <001601c4275a$3579c850$4f02a8c0@Cunningham>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Josh, Sorry if I came across wrong...late, tired, long week of "pushy
mother" accusations (recent trip home to visit family with dd just turned 6
who told everyone she was in 2nd grade-which she is, but made for lots of
questions and resulted in lots of unwanted, not very supportive advice about
letting her "have a normal childhood" as if dropping out of kindergarten
because it was "pointless" is in some way normal), an upcoming-next
week-school meeting to determine next year's placement and mostly fear that
my extremely perfectionist daughter who already says things like "I am
stupid", "everyone hates me!" and "I don't like the way I look, I just

thought I should look different than this" at 6 is showing all the signs of
a child at risk...and maybe my overwhelming fear of failing her or that I am
somehow contributing to her need to be perfect (I have learned sooo much
about myself in learning about my daughter)...in reading Kit's message it
seemed that once again "pushy parents" were to blame...apologize if I
misunderstood, I will reread all threads- I jumped in at the end- after some
sleep and coffee...looking forward to reading it all, sorry for jumping in
without being fully informed...Rebecca
----- Original Message -----
From: <joshshaine@comcast.net>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury

> Rebecca asked:
> "Are you implying that parents are "pushing" their daughters to this
> > behavior?"
>
> As I understand it, she said that that is ONE circumstance. That it is a
potentially contributing factor.
>
> She also asked:

> "Should we instead stand by and watch our gifted girls underachieve?"
>
> I don't believe that the choices are restricted to watching them
underachieve or behavior modification. Nor, from what I have seen, is the
behavior mod technique necessarily pproducing the benefits that some of the
parents who use it seek. As with so many other things, the kids vary - and
what works with one may well not work with the next.
>
> The 'consequences' can be contributors.
>
> Or, as Rebecca wrote, and Kit also noted, "my daughter puts that on
herself and try as I might, she won't rest until it is perfect."
Perfectionism can come from both sides or from either side.
>
> Rebecca also asked demands for "a more challenging and stimulating
curriculum ... to attempt to prevent the underachievement so prevalent in
gifted adolescents but when they are older it becomes acceptable for the
children to only apply themselves if they feel like it with no consequence
(basically underachieve)?"
>

> I didn't read anywhere that Kit said or even implied that. But I have a
few responses to that. If we do not, in fact, succeed in getting the
schools to do that, nor to help the student to self-direct/self-motivate,
then when they enter adolescence, if they are ill-prepared to perform then.
They frequently lack the skills to handle difficult work, even when it is
presented.
>
> And while some teens may 'only perform when they feel like it' that is
hardly the case with all of them - or possibly most. It takes a good while
for the desire please those they love to fade, contrary to what many parents
seem to think.
>
> Parents are a source. Schools are a source. Society is a source. And the
kids themselves are a source.
>
> I don't have a solution. I just know that cutting is a problem - or that
it is a symptom of a problem - or both.
>
> Josh Shaine
>
> > "What I see is children under enormous pressure, children who

> > literally think that perfection is the minimum standard. Children who
> > face the loss of all social life, all electronics, and their bedroom
> > door for the sin of inadequate grades or talking back. And their
> > definition of inadequate grades is often in the B plus range."
> >
> > Are you implying that parents are "pushing" their daughters to this
> > behavior? Or that consequences (loss of privileges) for poor grades is
the
> > cause? Should we instead stand by and watch our gifted girls
underachieve?
> > If they are capable of A's, aren't we wrong to cheerfully accept B's?
Why
> > shouldn't a child have consequences for talking back? Are you saying we
> > (parents) should be more permissive? I guess what I am asking is: When
> > gifted children are younger, we (parents) ask the schools to provide a
more
> > challenging and stimulating curriculum to encourage our children to
reach
> > their potential (Is it a Cheetah?) and to attempt to prevent the
>

> > underachievement so prevalent in gifted adolescents but when they are
older
> > it becomes acceptable for the children to only apply themselves if they
feel
> > like it with no consequence (basically underachieve)?
> >
> > I am not disputing that cutting/self injury is a problem for some girls,
> > specifically those with perfectionist traits, just that the parents are
to
> > blame for setting limits and restricting privileges when certain goals
are
> > not met or that parents are the source of this enormous pressure...my
> > daughter puts that on herself and try as I might, she won't rest until
it is
> > perfect.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:43:13 -0700
From: Steve and Becca <rorlowski@cts.com>
Subject: Re: HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <0d0901c4275b$386bc2b0$a20478d8@computerroom>
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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I'm a contact for the other state organization, California Homschool
Network. They've had a gifted point of contact, BJ Darr, for a number of
years. I've asked to be a point of contact for gifted children, as well. I
do know CHN has 3-4 contacts for special needs children. It's good to know
that the state organizations are recognizing the needs of gifted/special
needs children!

Becca Orlowski
rorlowski@cts.com

"Music exists for two purposes: the
glorification of God and the
refreshment of the soul." Bach
----- Original Message -----
From: "Corin Goodwin" <corin@thegoodwins.com>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 8:04 PM

Subject: HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon

>
> Thanks! Well, since you asked... The 20,000 number depends very much on
> how you define "homeschoolers," and it's hard to get anything like an
> accurate count. I can tell you that there are over 13,000 filers of
> private school affidavits in the state, but of course that includes
> 'regular' private schools in addition to those of us who have formed
> private schools in our home. In addition to that, there are some unknown
> number of folks who homeschool through public school independent study
> programs and through charter schools, and plenty of others who simply go
> "underground."
>
> As far as membership, the HomeSchool Association of California (HSC
> www.hsc.org) has approximately 800 members; I don't know how large the
> membership is for other the secular state association, California
> Homeschool Network (CHN). Of course, there are those who homeschool

> through religious programs, as well, or organizations such as the
> California Home Educators Association (CHEA).
>
> What I can tell you is that gifted and special needs kids appear to be
> the fastest growing segment of the homeschooling population in
> California, and I bet you all can guess why... To the best of my
> knowledge, HSC is the only statewide organization which actively
> supports those groups, through advisers, conference speakers, and --
> soon, I hope! -- through the expansion of our website to include
> resources specific to families of gifted homeschoolers, and hopefully
> some way for CA homeschoolers to make connections with each other. I
> welcome ideas or suggestions from anyone who wants to email me offlist
> about this at <corin @ thegoodwins.com> <--- (remove spaces)
>
> I was also going to ask you, Sally, who your friend is and if you are in
> California, and some other stuff, nothing urgent! Thanks for doing this

> conference -- I now return you all to your regularly scheduled topic :-p
>
> Corin
>
> %-------------------------------------------
> Sally M. Reis wrote:
>
> >Not at all. I hope my numbers are accurate. I learned them from a
friend
> >of mine who mentioned how effective your association has been!! If these
are
> >not accurate, please feel free to correct me on list. Sally
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
> >>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:13:51 -0700
> >>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> >>Subject: Re: Good afternoon
> >>
> >>Sally M. Reis wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>That is true. There are over 20,000 members of the home schooling
> >>>association in California alone and the reasons that most folks home
school
> >>>is either religious or academic. Of course, this option does not work
for
> >>>everyone, Sally
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Hi, Sally -- Would you mind if I contact you offlist about this?
> >>

> >>Thanks!
> >>Corin Goodwin <corin @ thegoodwins.com> <-- remove spaces
> >>HomeSchool Association of California
> >>Co-chair, Legislative Committee
> >>Adviser, Gifted/Special Needs
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:45:02 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: ADMIN: List members - continue chatting among ourselves
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040445.3829.4085FC4E000B286700000EF52200750744FF91908693D18693939E@comcas
t.net>

HI List Members,

Please feel free to continue chatting among ourselves. I think the UConn server
just isn't going to cooperate for a while. The plan remains the same
Dr. Reis will respond to those messages she received when it fits into her
extremely busy schedule, therefore just keep checking back:)In the world of the
internet - flexibility is a good trait to have.

I am signing off for about eight to nine hours. LOL with this international
group stating I am going to sleep may be really funny if your day has just
begun. LOL where I live it is night time.

Looking forward to reading messages tomorrow from those of you who are awake and
able to type while I am off sleeping:)

Each conference is quite an adventure.

Take care,

Sally_L
List Manager
Conference Coordinator

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:46:24 -0400
From: Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <002001c4275b$9a1dd4d0$4f02a8c0@Cunningham>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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*It seems to me that, if a parent is going to set
restrictions for bad behaviour/bad grades, shouldn't
they also reward the good, to help the child strive
for them? If the reaction to a C is "work harder" and
the reaction to an A is being ignored - where does
that lead to?

Me :) your classic gifted, underachieving college drop out...maybe the key
is to know your child, be an active participant in his or her life,
encourage without alienating...don't know...I am at the beginning of the
parenting journey confronting my own giftedness while advocating for my
daughters (6 and 3)...all I know is that my experience-essentially above-
(school and home)didn't work...Rebecca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rachel G." <ratesjul@yahoo.co.nz>
To: <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury

> I "work" with some of the same group mentioned by Kit
> and Josh, albeit closer in some ways (I'm not so much
> of a 'scary adult figure') and further apart in others
> (I'm halfway around the world from most them). I've
> had cases where some of them apologise to ME because
> they "slipped" and "had" to cut. I've seen references
> to instances where a thread about "they're cutting
> choir at my school" has had them have to think REALLY
> hard to keep from cutting.
>
> If they're capable of A's normally, and are battling
> such things as depression and lack of concentration,
> bringing home B+s isn't that bad. I've seen some of
> these girls berate themselves because they slipped
> from an A+ down to an A, even with only a one point
> difference.
>

> I've seen them explain a concept to me over an IM
> window, and then become unable to move around the
> words a little to turn their knowledge of a concept
> into an Essay that would satisfy an English Teacher.
> I've seen them ask how they're expected to concentrate
> on a reading for class when they can't read a book
> they've been waiting for for a month. If they're
> bringing home B+s when every word is like a drop of
> blood - that should hardly be termed inadequate.
>
> And if pushing them to get As is going to sink them
> further into depression because they see themselves as
> even more inadequate when they feel that they can't do
> it - who does that help? It also seems to me that
> there's a far cry between B+s and failing, though I'm
> unsure of what a failing grade constitutes - and the
> underachievers we're most worried about are those who
> fail when they could attain A+ grades, isn't it?
>
> It seems to me that, if a parent is going to set

> restrictions for bad behaviour/bad grades, shouldn't
> they also reward the good, to help the child strive
> for them? If the reaction to a C is "work harder" and
> the reaction to an A is being ignored - where does
> that lead to?
>
> I'm not a parent. I'm also not trying to place the
> blame at the parent's end of things.
>
> Rachel.
>
> <<"What I see is children under enormous pressure,
> children who literally think that perfection is the
> minimum standard. Children who face the loss of all
> social life, all electronics, and their bedroom
> door for the sin of inadequate grades or talking back.
> And their definition of inadequate grades is often in
> the B plus range.">>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
>
>

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:54:29 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Finding balance
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id:

<042120040454.6096.4085FE85000ADD0D000017D02200734076FF91908693D18693939E@comcas
t.net>

Tracy wrote:

> Ditto here Lisa. I simply couldn't work full time again, I value my time too
> much to sell so much of it (including the flow on impacts of working full
> time like having little or no 'self' time). I prefer to give my spare time
> to other pursuits such as writing, activism and participating on e-lists.

Tracy - I am so grateful for your particpation on e-lists. I have learned so
much
from you over the years!!!:))) Thank you for sharing - my life is enriched
through
your giving of your time and I really am always in awe of your insights.

Kind regards,
Sally_L

To: "Discuss the issues related to growth & development of gifted children" <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 00:01:05 CDT
Subject: OURGIFTED-L digest 127

OURGIFTED-L Digest 127

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
2) RE: ADMIN: Opening Conference with Dr. Sally Reis - Talented Females:
Obstacles, Challenges, & Choices.
by Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
3) Identifying/traits of gifted girls
by "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
4) Re: Finding a balance
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
5) Re: Identifying/traits of gifted girls
by Anja Jacobs <anjajacobs@macunlimited.net>
6) Re: Finding balance
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
7) Re: Finding a balance
by Susan Grammer <grammers@ix.netcom.com>
8) Re: Finding a balance
by Donna Langlois White <donna2143@cox.net>
9) Re: Finding balance
by dominiquetvp <dominiquetvp@yahoo.com>
10) Re: {Blocked Content} OURGIFTED-L digest 126
by "conniejeanne.larsen" <conniejeanne.larsen@slc.k12.ut.us>
11) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Logue, Theodosia Nowell (UMC-Student)" <tnltg2@mizzou.edu>
12) Re: Identifying/traits of gifted girls
by dominiquetvp <dominiquetvp@yahoo.com>
13) Gifted Females/On Maths and Science
by KF Old Account <kathryn.friedlander@BTInternet.com>
14) Re: Finding a balance
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
15) Re: Finding a balance
by Regina Olshan <rolshan2000@yahoo.com>
16) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by "Kathryn M. Finn" <kitfinn@cox.net>
17) Boy's culture of humiliation
by Ken Arenson <ken_arenson@yahoo.ca>
18) Re: Undiagnosed learning disabilities in gifted girls
by Paul and Sharon <psct@telkomsa.net>
19) Re: Identifying/traits of gifted girls
by "R.J. Herbison" <wubison@optonline.net>
20) Re: Finding a balance
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
21) Re: who goes for help
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
22) Re: HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon
by "Sally M. Reis" <srr02004@ad.uconn.edu>
23) ADMIN: Please feel free to continue chatting among ourselves
by Sally_L@comcast.net
24) Re: Finding balance
by Urmi Ashar <urmiashar@hotmail.com>
25) Re: who goes for help
by Urmi Ashar <urmiashar@hotmail.com>
26) Re: HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon
by Regina Olshan <rolshan2000@yahoo.com>
27) Re: Identifying/traits of gifted girls
by Paul and Sharon <psct@telkomsa.net>
28) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by AGKeener@aol.com
29) Re: who goes for help
by ddneuman@sbcglobal.net
30) Re: who goes for help
by JDCWilker@aol.com
31) [Fwd: Re: Putting the needs of others first]
by David Croome <dcroome@redma.com>
32) Re: who goes for help
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
33) Re: who goes for help
by Esckes@aol.com
34) Re: who goes for help
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
35) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Hilary Nigro <hnigro@mybluelight.com>
36) Re: who goes for help
by Sarah Garrison <msgarrison@sbcglobal.net>
37) Re: who goes for help
by dominiquetvp <dominiquetvp@yahoo.com>
38) Re: who goes for help - INTJ women
by Jamie Thorp <jsthorp@yahoo.com>
39) Re: who goes for help - INTJ women
by Esckes@aol.com
40) Re: who goes for help - INTJ women
by Misty Richmond <yahoo@mipper.com>
41) Re: Future action - college students becoming teachers & teachers of GT
by Sally_L@comcast.net
42) Re: Good afternoon
by "Kathryn M. Finn" <kitfinn@cox.net>
43) Creative processes & writing
by Sally_L@comcast.net
44) Re: Good afternoon
by MEC <mec@growminds.com>
45) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Josh Shaine <joshshaine@comcast.net>
46) Re: Finding balance
by Brenda Rinard <msrinard@mindspring.com>
47) Re: who goes for help
by JDCWilker@aol.com
48) Re: who goes for help
by "Lisa C." <ljchoquette@cox.net>
49) Re: Finding balance
by k-knecht@onu.edu
50) Re: Future action - college students becoming teachers & teachers of GT
by Hilary Nigro <hnigro@mybluelight.com>
51) Re: Finding balance
by HSchinske@aol.com
52) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
53) RE: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Hilary Nigro <hnigro@mybluelight.com>
54) Re: Gifted Females/On Maths and Science
by HSchinske@aol.com
55) Re: Gifted Females/On Maths and Science
by HSchinske@aol.com
56) Re: who goes for help
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
57) Re: Future action - college students becoming teachers & teachers of GT
by Mitford <mitford.atl@mindspring.com>
58) RE: Future action - college students becoming teachers & teachers of GT
by "Logue, Theodosia Nowell (UMC-Student)" <tnltg2@mizzou.edu>
59) Wellesley (was Re: Finding a balance)
by MEC <mec@growminds.com>
60) Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early cognitive
development for ...
by HSchinske@aol.com
61) Empowering / web thinking etc
by Douglas Eby <de@talentdevelop.com>
62) ADMIN _- Dr. Reis will post her wrap up tonight - Thanks
by Sally_L@comcast.net
63) THANK YOU
by Sally_L@comcast.net
64) Re: ADMIN _- Dr. Reis will post her wrap up tonight - Thanks
by Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
65) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Elisabeth Garrison <evidententhusiasm@hotmail.com>
66) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
67) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Elisabeth Garrison <evidententhusiasm@hotmail.com>
68) Re: Good afternoon
by Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
69) RE: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
by "Logue, Theodosia Nowell (UMC-Student)" <tnltg2@mizzou.edu>
70) Re: HSing gifted in CA, was Re: Good afternoon
by Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
71) Re: THANK YOU
by "Sally M. Reis" <sally.reis@uconn.edu>
72) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
73) RE: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated early
cognitivedevelopment for bright young girls?
by Andrew_Carson@hmco.com
74) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Joni <lawver@direcway.com>
75) ADMIN - Closing of Conference with Dr. Sally M. Reis
by Sally_L@comcast.net

------- End of Forwarded Message -------

Connie Jeanne Larsen
ELP/AP/IB Coordinator
West High School

on 21/4/04 10:59 AM, Rebecca Cunningham at slypigs@tampabay.rr.com wrote:

> just that the parents are to
> blame for setting limits and restricting privileges when certain goals are
> not met or that parents are the source of this enormous pressure...my
> daughter puts that on herself and try as I might, she won't rest until it is
> perfect.

My comment would be that there is a difference between punitive ways to
facilitate compliance, and encouragement and self-empowerment as a way to
achieve the same goals. Punishing a perfectionist is, in my opinion, a
double punishment, for the perfectionist is already punishing themselves in
many more ways, and more deeply, than any externally imposed punitive
measures. The consequences are all too obvious, as we have heard from this
list -- self harm, cutting, withdrawing, dropping out, depression along a
continuum to suicide. In many cases the pressure is both intrinsic and
extrinsic, one compounding the other.

I would be looking at the cause of underachievement, not just addressing the
outcomes. Why is the person 'answering back' (and why shouldn't they?), why
are they getting Bs when As are possible? What are the causal factors? Are
they within or outside of the scope for change by the individual?
Importantly, do we have an obligation to achieve just because we can? Can
and should achievement be a choice?

I understand perfectionism all too well. It has been crippling for me my
whole life, even now at 40 as I am currently a student. I am working hard on
letting it go but it is really tough. I think that a lot of it has to do
with proving my worth, that I really am very capable and intelligent. I know
that I am inside my own head but the constant need for that to be affirmed
externally drives me to achievement in ways that are not always mentally
healthy.

I am repeatedly reminded by my extended family (mother, father, sisters) how
unworthy/different/intellectual/too intense and serious I am in such a way
as to make me question who I am and whether it is me that is 'flawed' in
such a way as to be worthless or defective, since they all seem to be able
to get along reasonably well in spite of their differences. That has been
further confirmed for me in work and organisational situations where I have
eventually 'failed' time and again because I just couldn't toe the line set
out for me. I have had to withdraw from them all for my sanity.

Interestingly, no matter how much positive affirmation is given, there is
always a drive to seek more, just in case it wasn't sincere or real, or
when, in between times, there is more negative influence which serves to
undermine any growing confidence. For me personally, understanding the
motivation for perfectionism and how it impacts on me has helped me to let
go a lot more, to relax and enjoy my studies for what it is giving me as a
unique 'self' and how I can then share this acutalised 'self' in positive
ways. It has also enabled me to recognise the destructive signs of
perfectionistic intensity and to pull back.

This is why self-empowerment and self-actualisation are so important for
perfectionists, particularly women and girls struggling to find a
significant place within society and for themselves as individual
identities. Trying to take away or obliterate the perfectionism is only an
affirmation that there is something wrong or flawed in it. Working with it
and understanding it can lead to a more fulfilling sense of achievement.

Please, can I go no mail for this conference. I am away and emailed you
before I left but did not hear back from you. I also tried the website
instructions but got nowhere.

Thanks
Glenda

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
Behalf Of Sally_L@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2004 2:10 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: ADMIN: Opening Conference with Dr. Sally Reis - Talented Females:
Obstacles, Challenges, & Choices.

Dear List Members,

As conference coordinator I would like to welcome Dr. Sally Reis as our
guest expert, who so kindly has volunteered her time and expertise, to lead
us in a discussion exploring

Talented Females: Obstacles, Challenges, & Choices What kinds of decisions
do talented females make? At which stages during one's lifetime are these
decisions made? How can parents and teachers help develop gifts and
eliminate obstacles in young girls? These and other questions, as well as
possible solutions, will be explored in this session.

As previously posted the following is required pre-conference reading which
can be located at

http://www.neiu.edu/~ourgift/pages/Conference.htm

and is posted as part of this email for your convenience.

Required Pre-Conference Reading

Internal Barriers, Personal Issues & Decisions Faced by Gifted and Talented
Females

External Barriers Experienced by Gifted and Talented Girls & Women

Creativity and Women

We Can't Change What We Don't Recognize

Please, do not post to the list until AFTER Dr. Reis' posts her Opening
Statement. The anticipated time will be aproximately 3 p.m. Eastern Daylight
Time until 9 p.m.

I anticipate a couple of intermissions - breaks during this timeframe:)
Watch for such posts so breaks actually take place:) For some list members
this conference will be in the middle of the night, but for others dinner
time will take place too:)etc Since this is a listserv and email, please
remember that different ISP will deliver emails which may appear out of
order i.e. a reply to a post which you haven't received yet. There is
nothing I can do about that:) Just go with the flow:)Remember to post plain
text, snip your posts to facilitate quick reading.

Again, welcome Dr. Reis to Our Gifted Online Conferences and our approximate
400 list membership consisting of parents, teachers, college students,
gifted students and other professionals in various fields - We welcome
you!!! The list members will wait until you come online to begin the
conference on Talented Females: Obstacles, Challenges, & Choices.

More later,
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
List Manager
www.neiu.edu/~ourgift

Hi all

I was wondering about the pointers that indicate a girl is likely to be
gifted. Our son has been identified as HG, and we have two daughters, a 5yo
and a 3yo. We have suspected since our eldest daughter was at least 1 that
she is gifted, but it is much harder to point to specifics. Our son was
very interested in science from a young age, very inquisitive, has lots of
"academic" type areas we can hone in on.

On the other hand, whilst our daughter spoke early, started writing early,
has a very sharp mind etc, there are no topics she shows a passionate
interest in. She loves phonics, is very good at almost anything physical
she tries. She is just sooo different. We have already noticed how she
will dumb herself down to fit in and do what it takes to be popular and
"cool". She has a charismatic personality, and it is really important to
her what others think. Does this ring a bell with anyone else?

Is the above observation fairly normal for gifted girls?

Susan M
Australia

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.637 / Virus Database: 408 - Release Date: 20/03/2004

on 21/4/04 12:21 PM, Mitford at mitford.atl@mindspring.com wrote:

> I think it important that we realize men do NOT have it all. While we women
> often wish we had not had to make the difficult choice between raising our
> children and fulfilling our career aspirations - men, often wish, they HAD
> realized the decisions they were making along the way.

This is true, however there is a fundamental difference. For men the choice
is 'real'. They can choose to have a family and maintain their career, and
they can choose the level of maintenance in that career. They also don't
have to work as hard in maintaining the career or climbing the success
ladder (or in the home) as women, who both have to make behavioural and
emotional adjustments, and often have to prove their worth more.

For women it is yet another 'forced choice dilemma' (see Gross for a
discussion on this:
http://www.ditd.org/Cybersource/Record.aspx?lib=1&sort=SourceName&scat=902&s
type=110&sid=11230&sterm=%22Ability+Grouping%22) of being female, and the
biological bearer of children. If women want a family, they must bear and
raise that family, in part or, more usually, in full.

Women in modern society simply have to work harder in every facet of their
lives. This is a serious problem for women in trying to juggle their own
needs with those demands placed upon them by society and family. The vast
majority of global unpaid work is done by women. They are the glue that
binds together community and family, and there is often little choice about
it, they get stuck with the job and do it because it has always been that
way.

Now that more and more women are seeking masculine ideals of success and
achievement the glue is becoming unstuck. The problem is how do we reconcile
the need for women to develop their self fully (which will often involve
having a family) and to also do everything else imposed upon them which
includes community cohesion. The answers are very difficult to find as the
market based society relies heavily on women's work, and especially
underpaid work, in order to maintain its impetus. Perhaps this model that we
currently live under will collapse under the weight of its flaws sooner or
later. It has once before, it will probably do so again.

Hi Susan,
It sure rings a bell with me! Please find my story in the message
titled 'gifted preschooler with low self-esteem'.

My daugher (5 tomorrow) is also primarily interested reading, writing
and phonics. She is also very good at physical although she first
has to overcome her fears these days. She does not seem to be really
passionate about any specific topic, except dance, babycare, foetal
growth and fertility issues. She is very 'street wise' and very
concerned with her physical appearance. In many ways she behaves
like a 14 year old in her social interactions. She is very concerned
with what's going on in the world, and it intrigues and frightens her
at the same time.
She is a neurotic perfectionist and is never pleased with her
achievements. Although she has a good sense of humour she is a very
serious little girl.

She also has a HG brother but she is so very different from him that
it took me a long time to realize that she might be gifted too.
(Please also see Dr.Reis response to the message I posted, in which
she focussed on the definition and development of giftedness)
It is clear that she is highly intelligent. It is less clear as to
how much internal motivation she has: is there something that is
inhibiting her in the pursuit of her interests already? Or is she
simply not interested? Either way it is obvious that the normal
curriculum at school is frustrating her and will continue to do so.
She tells us very explicitely that she wants to skip the last year of
kindergarten and start elementary school next september.
For the moment I am constantly looking for things she might take an
interest in and at the same time I am pushing towards enrichment of
her curriculum at school.

This year she started dance classes (something she was longing for
since she was a toddler) but now wants to give up on them "because
it's too boring". Yet she is very talented, she still dances a lot
at home, loves to watch ballet, and so forth, and her dance teacher
has proposed to make her skip a class next year to give her somewhat
more of a challenge. My daughter is now thinking this through.
Only very recently she had decided she wants to play the violin, I
acted quickly on this and I have an appointment with a violin teacher
later today.

I'd love to exchange my questions and experiences with you!

Best regards,
Anja

Dearest Sally_L,

It is a two way street. Your very welcome positive encouragement enables me
to continue to participate effectively, and feel safe in doing so. It can be
so risky to think outside the current norms, and give voice to those
thoughts. Moreso if the speaker suffers from attributes of giftedness that
we have spoken of many times before -- depression, anxiety, sensitivities
and perfectionism amongst so many others.

Thank you once again for so tirelessly and effectively creating a safe space
to engage in such an enriching dialogue and discourse.

warm wishes
Tracy
Pemberton, Western Australia
tracy@cycloneco.com.au
--
We are not commodities, we are not for sale. Another world is possible!

Social Movements Network
Cancun, Mexico September 2003

on 21/4/04 12:54 PM, Sally_L@comcast.net at Sally_L@comcast.net wrote:

>
> Tracy wrote:
>
>> Ditto here Lisa. I simply couldn't work full time again, I value my time too
>> much to sell so much of it (including the flow on impacts of working full
>> time like having little or no 'self' time). I prefer to give my spare time
>> to other pursuits such as writing, activism and participating on e-lists.
>
> Tracy - I am so grateful for your particpation on e-lists. I have learned so
> much
> from you over the years!!!:))) Thank you for sharing - my life is enriched
> through
> your giving of your time and I really am always in awe of your insights.
>
> Kind regards,
> Sally_L

First, I do agree with what Tracy says

> This is true, however there is a fundamental difference. For men the
choice
> is 'real'. They can choose to have a family and maintain their career, and
> they can choose the level of maintenance in that career. They also don't
> have to work as hard in maintaining the career or climbing the success
> ladder (or in the home) as women, who both have to make behavioural and
> emotional adjustments, and often have to prove their worth more.,

and I will fight hard so that my daughter does not have to give up any
dreams in order to come as close as she can to "having it all" when she is
grown.
That said, I feel very strongly that men, also, do not have it all,
BECAUSE of the expectation that they maintain a career on a fairly straight
path.
I feel that, although I may not have "reached my potential" in my
schooling, the first career (or two) that I chose, or even in my parenting
skills, I have benefited immensely and grown as a human being (have had much
more time to reach towards self-actualization than my husband will ever
have -- and it has frustrated me some because it has sent us backward a bit
as a team, I think), because I was not "expected" to have to stay on one
track throughout my adult life and my husband was.
I just deleted (on purpose) a huge rambling thought that went on from
here for pages because I don't have time at the moment to turn it into
anything sensible. I will try to summarize what I was thinking: Because my
husband was more "on track" with his career (though we flipflopped a bit
over the years), I was handed the opportunity to spend the last 7 years
trying on a part-time career as a science writer and learning that I love
many parts of it but want it to evolve into yet a third career that will
mesh my biomedical research experience and contacts, my science writing
experience and contacts, my parenting experience and my gifted education
advocacy experience into another career. True, it is frustrating because I
am having to prove myself, but what can I expect when I decide to do
everything my own way so that I don't have to fit into anyone's mold? What
is actually more frustrating is that I am feeling the pressure now to give
up my chosen "semi-retirement years" and focus on the "paid" writing
projects. I should be thrilled that my husband supports me in developing
that career, but instead I am whining that I have to give up the "fun stuff"
that I am working so hard at that doesn't bring in any financial benefit.
So now I can feel a little of the pressure he has felt over the years...
I really want to thank Dr. Reis and the other professionals and parents
for all I have learned during this short conference and I'm sure that I will
take home much more from it once I get to let it all settle in and then have
a chance to read back through the posts next week.

And SallyL, thank you again more than I can ever say for having these
on-line conferences available. This is an incredible opportunity to
transfer critical information to those who will eventually transform
education into something that works for all kids!!

I have to disagree with this. It may have been the expectation in the past,
but I don't think that it is necessarily so anymore. Men are beginning to be
allowed to make choices previously only afforded women. I know several stay
at home dads. Mom is the one with the career outside the home.

I took some time off when my son was born, about a year and a half and I had
to jump through hoops justifying not working for that period of time. I
think that is changing as well. The pendulum is swinging back.

change is slow, but things are changing. Life for our daughters is light
years different from what it will be for us.

donna

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Grammer" <grammers@ix.netcom.com>

> That said, I feel very strongly that men, also, do not have it all,
> BECAUSE of the expectation that they maintain a career on a fairly
straight
> path.

A man can choose to have a carreer that requires him to work for 60 hours a week
and still have a family, but women can't have it all. And whatever choice they
make, they'll have regrets and think they should have done better. I hope this
will change so it allows our daughters to have more choices, but I doubt it.
And indeed, there is the additional problem we face, of gifted women who now
have gifted kids and all the extra challenges and choices that brings.
A year ago I started to work again after thirteen years as a mother and
housewife. One of the reasons (but not the main one) why I started working again
was in order to provide my 12 year old daughter with a better role model. I
wanted her to see that a woman can do other things than clean the house and
drive kids around. But it has been hard and every day I wonder if I'm not
shortchanging them by not being around as much as I used too. I'm especially
worried about one of my nine year old boys, who is a very challenging to raise
gifted child. I realize that I might have to give up my job again in the future
to home school or assist him better. Men don't have this ambivalence. They do
their job and try to be a good father but they don't feel guilty or pressured as
much about the choices they make.

Dominiquetvp

Donna Langlois White <donna2143@cox.net> wrote:
I haven't read this thread but I will make a few comments. I graduated high
school in 1975 when we were told that we (women) could do anything. We could
do it all. No one was there however to show us how to do that. Just like
Lisa I was not allowed to take certain classes in school, I received no
encouragement from my guidance counselor, etc. I want to say for the record
that women have been sold a bill of goods.We can do it all but we're not
going to do anything to the best of our ability. When I was in college at
age 35, my Grandmother said "why don't you just knock off all this college
stuff and find a good husband". So much for expecting encouragement from my
family. I was divorced, working, going to school and just beginning to learn
that public school was going to be a continual disaster for my child.

I've learned over the years that my needs have to take a back seat to his
and he truly needs me to get him ready for life in a much more involved
manner that "normal" parents.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa C."
I haven't been terribly involved in the Society
> of Women Engineers because I can't honestly suggest to other young women
> that they can do it all.
>
> I wish I knew how to teach my children to have just the right amount of
> self-drive - finding that balance between career and family. I developed
my
> drive almost to spite my parents and situation - each time someone
implied,
> 'you can't do this' - I had to show them I could!
>
> Lisa C.

Dominiquetvp

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢

A man can choose to have a carreer that requires him to work for 60 hours a week and still have a family, but women can't have it all. And whatever choice they make, they'll have regrets and think they should have done better. I hope this will change so it allows our daughters to have more choices, but I doubt it.
And indeed, there is the additional problem we face, of gifted women who now have gifted kids and all the extra challenges and choices that brings.
A year ago I started to work again after thirteen years as a mother and housewife. One of the reasons (but not the main one) why I started working again was in order to provide my 12 year old daughter with a better role model. I wanted her to see that a woman can do other things than clean the house and drive kids around. But it has been hard and every day I wonder if I'm not shortchanging them by not being around as much as I used too. I'm especially worried about one of my nine year old boys, who is a very challenging to raise gifted child. I realize that I might have to give up my job again in the future to home school or assist him better. Men don't have this ambivalence. They do their job and try to be a good father but they don't feel guilty or pressured as much about the choices they make.

Dominiquetvp

Donna Langlois White <donna2143@cox.net> wrote:
I haven't read this thread but I will make a few comments. I graduated high
school in 1975 when we were told that we (women) could do anything. We could
do it all. No one was there however to show us how to do that. Just like
Lisa I was not allowed to take certain classes in school, I received no
encouragement from my guidance counselor, etc. I want to say for the record
that women have been sold a bill of goods.We can do it all but we're not
going to do anything to the best of our ability. When I was in college at
age 35, my Grandmother said "why don't you just knock off all this college
stuff and find a good husband". So much for expecting encouragement from my
family. I was divorced, working, going to school and just beginning to learn
that public school was going to be a continual disaster for my child.

I would love to pursue a second ! master's and I would like more time to
myself but having a twice exceptional kid consumes my life. I thought when
I had a baby I loved him, he'd grow, he'd go off to school, I could attend
PTA meetings, help on field trips, he'd graduate high school, etc. etc.
Instead it's been a full time job just getting him through school to this
point and we take that on a day to day basis. I would love a better job in
my chosen career but have to settle because I need the flexibility afforded
me at my current job.

I've learned over the years that my needs have to take a back seat to his
and he truly needs me to get him ready for life in a much more involved
manner that "normal" parents.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa C."
I haven't been terribly involved in the Society
> of Women Engineers because I can't honestly suggest to other young women
> that they can do it all.
>
> I wish I knew ho! w to teach my children to have just the right amount of
> self-drive - finding that balance between career and family. I developed
my
> drive almost to spite my parents and situation - each time someone
implied,
> 'you can't do this' - I had to show them I could!
>
> Lisa C.

Dominiquetvp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ Can you fix this?

Connie Jeanne Larsen
ELP/AP/IB Coordinator
West High School

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Discuss the issues related to growth & development of gifted children" <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
To: "Discuss the issues related to growth & development of gifted children" <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Sent: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 00:01:08 CDT
Subject: {Blocked Content} OURGIFTED-L digest 126

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________________________________

Tracy wrote:
"I understand perfectionism all too well. It has been crippling for me my
whole life, even now at 40 as I am currently a student. I am working hard on
letting it go but it is really tough. I think that a lot of it has to do
with proving my worth, that I really am very capable and intelligent. I know
that I am inside my own head but the constant need for that to be affirmed
externally drives me to achievement in ways that are not always mentally
healthy."

I hear you loud and clear, Tracy! And I know your words will ring true with many
of the gifted participants this week. This sense of perfectionism is at once a
blessing and a curse. It is the invisible engine that drives us to perform and
develop and seek out our best self. It is also the wedge driven between us and
others (when we cannot let go of an issue or have to achieve a certain level in
a collaborative project, where our counterparts may not be "measuring up" to the
standards we set for ourselves) and the little voice in our heads that
constantly burns away at all the good we do and tries to reduce it to ashes.

It has really only been in the last 2 years (I'm nearly 33) that I've begun to
"find" myself by studying giftedness, and I've devoted myself to teaching other
gifted kids in the hope that I can shed some light on their uniqueness and help
them cherish and develop their "best selves." I was identified in school but
always given piecemeal programming and NEVER affective education.

I've struggled in the workplace with putting others off with my intensity (and
not seeing it until it was too late), but I've also endeared myself to others
with my passion, too. My HG mother (who incidentally was dyslexic and a B-C
student all through school and did not know she was highly gifted until tested
as an adult in the military) gave me some excellent advice about working with
others, which provided a less self-centered approach than I was used to taking,
and I'm paraphrasing here: You have to make space, room for others to express
their ideas and share, so they can develop and grow. Give others a chance to
implement their ideas and see them to fruition. You are not the only source of
good ideas. (It was basically a slap in the face, but one I've been trying to
put into practice this year.)

I've learned about myself that I'm a good facilitator, so I've tried to put
myself more into that role, which tends to reduce some frustrations I have about
pace and progress. AND, then I'm working WITH others' ideas instead of trying to
drive the whole train.

I now I have a gifted daughter, and I find myself slipping into my perfectionist
tendencies in raising her. I don't want to send the message that she does not
"measure up," which is the message I always got from my hg father. Sometimes I
forget she is only 7 and that I need to temper my reactions/responses
accordingly. How are other perfectionist parents dealing with their own
character issues, as they try to raise their gifted children in a way that might
help them avoid the pitfalls we've experienced?

Dodie

Subject: OURGIFTED-L digest 128
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:01:07 CDT
OURGIFTED-L Digest 128

Topics covered in this issue include:

1) Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated earlycognitivedevelopment
for bright young girls?
by gurgle <gurgle2@bigpond.com.au>
2) Re: one more INTJ
by Jennifer Meyer <jenmeyer@ix.netcom.com>
3) Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
by Debra B Walker <debbidee@hotmail.com>
4) Careers and choices
by Becky Whittenburg <Becky.Whittenburg@bvsd.k12.co.us>

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:23:46 +0800
From: gurgle <gurgle2@bigpond.com.au>
Subject: Re: Gifted conference / Risks of accelerated earlycognitivedevelopment
for bright young girls?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <001c01c42829$fd1812c0$d25dfea9@m2k7o6>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

this isn't any picture in the email

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:00:27 -0400
From: Jennifer Meyer <jenmeyer@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: one more INTJ
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040422075712.03213800@popd.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii

>I have been lurking on these conferences for a while, but remember a
>previous post you made regarding MB profiles, and why formerly working
>gifted moms sometimes have a hard time fitting into the SAHM culture. As
>an INTJ, I am a rare female indeed,

Delurking to say thank you, thank you, thank you! I already knew this, on
some level, but to see it in print is a comfort. Thanks for validating me.

Back to lurkdom.

Jenny in Va.

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:43:45 +0000
From: Debra B Walker <debbidee@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <Sea2-F18hXWitnXeRgS0000f35b@hotmail.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed
Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT

If you're a parent and suspect this behavior is going on, there is a book
that you and your child may want to read together. It is Green Angel, by
Alice Hoffman.

The kids I've worked with, admittedly several years ago, before it the
behavior was understood, described the cutting as a release, an affirmation
that he/she was still alive when seeing the blood, and feeling the cut.

>From: Elisabeth Garrison <evidententhusiasm@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:49:01 -0600
>
>If I knew entirely what the "right things" were, I'd be a much happier

>person. It's a lot easier to point out the failings of a person than to
>help them go right, especially since a parent isn't just a source of
>sympathy, they're also the director, payclerk, and ruler, which is an
>incredibly daunting task. I may be wrong here and these definitely aren't
>definitive answers or all the answers.
>
>(all uses of 'your' in here aren't aimed at anyone specifically.)
>
>Many of "the right things" are getting educated. Parents who have children
>who cut often don't understand what on earth is going on now and sometimes
>jump to conclusions. Get educated on self-mutilation and understand that
>it's not just an activity, it's an expression of a deeper emotion.
>Concentrate on the emotions first- on helping your child get sorted out
>first- instead of just demanding that they stop hurting their skin.
>
>I'm personally a tremendous fan of professional counselling.
>
>Don't make your child feel ashamed for cutting, or belittle it. It's not

>just an embarassing fad or statement, like a piercing or a tattoo. They
>shouldn't hide in a corner because they must surely be the only one on the
>continent (or in the city/town you're in) with psychological problems.
>Sometimes your co-workers or friends will ask why your son or daughter has
>cuts on their arms or other visible skin. It's really none of their
>business unless you want it to be. It's akward to say "nothing" but put up
>with it. You don't need to explain or legitamize your child's problem.
>It's not a fad (okay, with some kids it is- very along the lines of I Am A
>Gothic Artist Poet, but that's an entirely different barrel of monkeys and
>not as common as people think it is). It's not going to go away if you
>ignore it and it's not going to get better if you eliminate sleeveless
>shirts from your daughter's closet.
>
>Enccourage your child- "I know it's tough (or even, 'I don't know entirely

>all the issues you're going through') but I still love you and think that
>you're a worthy person. I've known you all my life and I think that you
>can overcome whatever you're going through right now." Realise that
>sometimes your child will think you're an insensitive and overbearing
>person who thinks that they know what it's like to be a teenager. We all
>think that of our parents. You probably know more about what they're going
>through than they'll ever guess you do.
>
>Given, these aren't "the right things", they're just general "right
>things".
>
>Did I mention I was a tremendous fan of professional counselling?
>
>Elisabeth Garrison
>Haven Webmistress http://www.geocities.com/havensrefuge
>
>>From: Rebecca Cunningham <slypigs@tampabay.rr.com>
>>Reply-To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>>To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
>>Subject: Re: Gifted Girls and Cutting/Self-Injury
>>Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:28:28 -0400
>>
>>"Parents often do "all the wrong things"."
>>

>>so what are the "right things"?
>>
>> Rebecca
>>
>>
>

Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:37:08 -0600
From: Becky Whittenburg <Becky.Whittenburg@bvsd.k12.co.us>
Subject: Careers and choices
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <8A686EBA1049464CB1EFD4056225B53D04960BBD@shavano.bvsd.k12.co.us>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I think we need to ask ourselves, when we direct our children away from
careers in the arts and toward what society deems to be more "serious"
careers, what that says about following one's passions vs. following the
almighty buck. (And there is good $$ in the arts!) There is a culture
that says drama, music, dance, art is fine for a hobby or
extracurricular activity, but when it is time to get serious about a
career, our gifted youngsters need to turn their backs on these fields
and chase the common career paths. If they insist, we think okay, maybe
if they settle on teaching it at a university we could accept I . We

say we value creativity, but we'd much rather they try to find some
creativity in chemistry than create a new artistic interpretation of
life in our times. There was a Peanut's cartoon where Schroeder was
playing the piano and Lucy was draped over it. She commented that he
was only playing piano till he could get a "real job." He took the
piano and crashed it over her head. My personal response was, "good for
him." There are opportunities and gains in the arts unrivaled by more
traditional careers. There is more to choice and female achievement
than just helping them break into the common
math/science/technology/corporate rat race. Do we really value their
passions? Do we really believe in all the possibilities? Are our
biases limiting our children's choices? If biology or engineering is her
passion, GREAT! But if it's performing in drama or music or dance, can
we also say GREAT?

Becky (mother to two professional dancers and a recent film school
graduate)